More on Trademarks
Friday, April 18th, 2008 at 1:07 PM by: lauraplinden
We want to address Resident concerns raised in the blogosphere. We know Residents have questions about our trademark policy, and we want to answer them. We’re responding to questions by email as quickly as we can. We also hope this post will help with questions and concerns. If you have others, please let us know by email to tm-questions@lindenlab.com.
1. Residents are worried that if they overlook a trademark issue somewhere, they might find themselves permanently banned from the Second Life world without warning. How will trademark issues be handled?
Residents should not worry about being banned without warning. If we have a trademark issue, we’ll just get in touch about changes that need to be made. Once the changes are made, the problem will be solved. For trademark issues, banning would be a last resort. We’d issue multiple warnings beforehand, and even afterwards, Residents would have an opportunity to request reversal of the ban by sending us a written appeal.
2. Some Residents are concerned about how to discuss Second Life. Residents worry that the trademark policy restricts their speech and want to know if it’s consistent with “nominative fair use.” How can Residents refer to Second Life?
Residents certainly can discuss Second Life and call it by its name. Our policy has specific guidelines here for referring to Second Life in a way that’s consistent with nominative fair use. There has been some confusion about trademark notice symbols (like ® or ™) and about following trademarks with nouns.
When referring to a trademark in writing, it should be set apart from surrounding text in a way that indicates that it’s a trademark. This is part of nominative fair use. Our policy provides a typical way to distinguish our trademarks from surrounding text. The first or most prominent reference should be followed with the correct trademark symbol (® or ™) and an appropriate noun to indicate what you’re talking about (so, for example, the “Second Life® world” or “Second Life® viewer”).
Now just to be clear–we’re only talking about the first or most prominent use. We’ve seen some blog posts using ® after every mention of “Second Life.” After the initial reference to the trademark at issue, there’s no need to use the symbol again. And there’s no need to use a noun again unless the omission of the noun makes it unclear what you’re talking about. So, for example, it’s useful to distinguish between different aspects of the Second Life services, like whether you mean the “Second Life world” (the 3D space) or the “Second Life viewer” (the application).
3. Is there an easy way for bloggers who focus on Second Life to take care of this? So they don’t have to worry about including a trademark symbol every time they post about Second Life?
There is. Check out the SLED Blog banner at http://www.sl-educationblog.org/ as an example of proper usage. This is a blog we support with a license that has a lot of great contributions by education-oriented Residents. You’ll see that under the blog name, in smaller text, there’s a descriptive byline that explains what the blog is about: “K-20 Education Using the Second Life® World.” You’ll also see that this byline takes care of the trademark symbol and the first noun after “Second Life” for the blog posts.
For blogs that are just about Second Life, this is an easy way to go. But it’s important that the blog name be more prominent than the byline. And if the name uses the words “SL” or “inSL,” it should follow our license for this (or be under a separate written license like the SLED Blog).
4. Some bloggers have expressed concern about having to go back and change references to “Second Life” in blog posts they wrote before the updated policy. Do they have to do this?
We’re not going to ask bloggers to go back through blog posts predating the policy to change how they’ve described Second Life.
5. If it’s not possible to use a trademark symbol or a noun when describing Second Life (for example, due to space constraints), how should one refer to Second Life?
It’s probably OK to omit the trademark symbol and noun in these circumstances. We’ve addressed this in the section of our policy here about business cards (see paragraph 4 of the Guidelines). The goal of this part of the policy is not to be heavy-handed, but to provide guidance on how to discuss our products and services consistent with trademark law. This can be a complicated subject. We’ve tried to provide some clear examples, but no trademark policy can cover every possible situation.
6. The inSL logo license prohibits displaying the logo with disparaging material. What is “disparaging”? And who decides this?
“Disparagement” is a “false and injurious statement that discredits and detracts from the reputation of another’s property, product, or business.” Under the license, Linden Lab has sole discretion to determine what’s “disparagement.” We’re huge fans of free speech, fair criticism, and parody (like Get a First Life). But it’s important to get your facts right. If you’re ever unsure whether certain material is “disparaging,” it’s best to display the inSL logo elsewhere with content that you have no doubts about.
7. Does Linden Lab have exclusive rights in the letters “SL” combined? Is any use of “SL” in a product or service name, business or organization name, or domain name going to be a trademark issue?
Yes, we have trademark rights in “SL” in connection with our virtual world goods and services. Any use of “SL” cannot infringe or dilute our trademark. Uses in brand names that are likely to present trademark issues include (but aren’t limited to) those where “SL” refers to “Second Life” and the use doesn’t comply with our license to use “SL”, and those uses for or related to virtual world goods or services.
8. Why was the trademark policy updated? And why now?
We updated the policy to address changes in the Second Life community and virtual worlds in general. In the past few years, the Second Life community has grown significantly and there’s been a proliferation of other virtual worlds. Our trademark policy has evolved along with these developments.
A key term in our earlier policies–and central to trademark law–was to “avoid confusion,” which means to avoid creating confusion about what’s provided by Linden Lab and what isn’t. When the Second Life community was much smaller and generally unknown to the public at large, our policy allowed Residents to use certain trademarks on their websites (which the policy called “fansites”) to show their connection to the Second Life community. At that time, for example, a disclaimer on a Resident website that showed the Second Life Eye-in-Hand logo could be enough to protect against confusion. That was because the early group of Residents was incredibly familiar with Linden Lab and could easily distinguish Linden Lab’s website from Resident sites.
With the growth of the Second Life community and a greater awareness of Second Life by those outside the community, it was increasingly important to take precautions to ensure that when people saw our trademarks (particularly people less familiar with Linden Lab), they knew it was a product or service of Linden Lab. In addition, as more virtual worlds emerged, it was important to make sure our trademarks were used only for Second Life and not for virtual worlds provided by others. With these developments, we needed a more robust trademark policy. So we published an updated policy around January of 2007 and then again this year.
9. How is it that Linden Lab can update its trademark policy? And why can’t Residents be “grandfathered” in under the earlier policies?
Trademark policies frequently evolve to deal with new or different circumstances. This happens because trademark owners can change how they allow their trademarks to be used. It was important for Linden Lab to update its policy to avoid confusion given the growth of the Second Life community and virtual worlds in general. We can’t “grandfather” in earlier uses of our trademarks because the uses could create confusion now. The whole goal of updating the policy is to avoid confusion. However, we want to work with Residents who need time and help making adjustments. If you need extra time or help, please write us at tm-questions@lindenlab.com.
10. Why is the trademark policy in the Terms of Service?
The Terms of Service are the conditions under which Linden Lab offers the Second Life services. One of those conditions is adherence to our trademark policy, meaning that any use of our trademarks–both inworld and outside of Second Life–must comply with our policy.
We realize that this isn’t the extent of the questions. Please spend some time reading through our FAQs. We will be updating them to include the Q&A above. If you don’t find what you’re looking for there, please write us at tm-questions@lindenlab.com.
This entry was posted on Friday, April 18th, 2008 at 1:07 PM and is filed under -Miscellaneous. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
151 Responses to “More on Trademarks”
1. 1 cosa nostra Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:13 PM
please use your energy on more added value things ! trademark or not, if SECOND LIFE keeps sucking you will not need a trademark anymore moving forward !
cosa
2. 2 Obvious Schism Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:20 PM
“We’ve seen some blog posts using ® after every mention of “Second Life.” After the initial reference to the trademark at issue, there’s no need to use the symbol again.”….
Have% you* never$ heard@ of£ irony?
3. 3 Otenth Paderborn Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:23 PM
Much better than previous announcements. Thank you for listening and taking the time to respond to concerns.
4. 4 Trinity Nabob Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:23 PM
Who cares. There is problems with in world transactions right now. Lets focus on that shall we.
5. 5 Gwyneth Llewelyn Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:24 PM
Thanks, LauraP, for the update on the trademark clarification.
We could split hairs about some slight details here, of course :) But it’ll give me personally enough to think about for the next few days.
6. 6 Vivienne Daguerre Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:24 PM
On my sim in a cave I have cave paintings, like those done by cave men in France (Lescaux I believe). In such caves it is common to find handprints of ancient artists dipped in their painting medium and applied to the walls. For fun, in that vein, and acknowledging the “ancient Lindens” I put coloured handprints on the wall using the SL eye in hand logo. Is this an infringement or should I remove them? The cave art appears on no website or anywhere outside of SL.
7. 7 Sweetly Blessed Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:26 PM
How about adressing Resident concerns where the STABILITY of the GRID, LOST INVENTORY ITEMS, GRID BEING OFFLINE CONTINUALLY, PEOPLE LOSING MONEY IN THE GAME BY THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS is concerned! This is far more IMPORTANT than this lengthy post on Trademarks!!!
Why do you aviod answering our repeated questions and concerns and busy yourselves with adding new features that totally bork the game and add a new viewer, etc.. without proper testing FIRST?
This is where we need, want and deserve ANSWERS; REAL ONES THAT MAKE SENSE AND ARE TRUTHFUL, I might add…
Continual Bandaids on your gapeing wound are not even coming close to serving ANY purpose!!
We are not stupid and the patience of all of us is wearing very thin. Why not spend time on a stable grid which is what we are all begging you for? I just don’t get this? It makes absolutely NO DAMN SENSE!!
Sorry, but this has gotten insane and way past the point of being something we are willing to deal with on a moment to moment basis!
8. 8 thegrimmling Snook Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:27 PM
I mentioned on my personal blogs variations of “SL” or “Second Life” not thinking about the whole trademarking thing. Does that apply too?
Oh, I mean my MySpace blog and it was no reference to any good or services.
9. 9 http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/04/18/more-on-trademarks/#comments - SLUniverse Forums Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:31 PM
[...] More on Trademarks � Official Second Life Blog I find this comment kind of funny my self. " 7. Does Linden Lab have exclusive rights in [...]
10. 10 thegrimmling Snook Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:33 PM
(in responce to post 7 aka Sweetly Blessed’s post)
we all been asking about parts of that. I rememebr that one asset server they found after it went missing last summer. But compaired to other vrtual worlds Second Life IS the most flexible and most advance.
Seeing SL rolls out these “progressive” updates, we get to play with features other virtual worlds do not have. Because of this we have to take the good and the bad.
I personally wish they lock down tight the loss of assets like money and inventory items better, but SL is a game that you chosen to play. No one forced you to register and spend time playing it.
And if you are loosing money, check your transaction history, I discovered it was one of my groups leetching cash from me in their monthly bill paying.
11. 11 Jacek Antonelli Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:36 PM
Thank you for this clarification, Laura. It has addressed my concerns in a straightforward way.
12. 12 Obvious Schism Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:40 PM
Ok fair enough. But can we mention SL in this blog? Or can someone tell me how to find the appropriate symbols on my keyboard? Its never been an issue before so I think they are all rusty. My mothers name is Sally Langford and she is 83. Can you put her mind to rest that she won’t be visited by SL lawyers in the middle of the night after she has tagged her initials all over the London tube system?
13. 13 cosa nostra Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:40 PM
@10
grimm, for new customers, free accounts or premium members entering this game, there is nothing mentioned about a BETA PROGRAM, people should be informed prior than creating the account that they accept the ‘terms & conditions’ first ! right ?
for example, linden can say that SL is a BETA PROGRAM where every hour an update or a crash or something else can happen! not doing this is against any BUSINESS LAW ! it would also prevent from people spending money in here, buying land, or going to premium accounts !
so again, if I buy a new car, the seller doesnt tell me that the engine is still a BETA version, my car breaks down every day or has to go back to the service station ???? how would you react on this, is this not a rip off !
does this explain ?
cosa
14. 14 Soundsmith Kamachi Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:42 PM
It is good to see the clarifications on trademarks (which you shoudl have doen earlier). I do not see that what you require is different from what other companies do.
BTW: This is a post about trademark. Is it impossible to post something that is NOT related to performance or other technical probelms (from which we all suffer) without getting this message thread being filled up with discussions about these problems?
15. 15 Silence ≠ Death* « Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:43 PM
[...] - Vale sempre a pena lutar. Os ‘coisos’ ouviram o nosso silêncio!, e no blogue oficial já lá está um post sobre o [...]
16. 16 Jessica Hultcrantz Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:44 PM
And while we are at it, this blog post is unique enough to be considered as a work protected by copyright as stated in international laws, so don’t quote me! ©
This whole trademark ™ thing has gone ridiculous.
GO FIX THE SL-GRID ™ !
Geezz this insanity requires everyone to keep the The Second Life® Brand Center chart printed out or in bookmarks to be able to follow all the rules…
Free speech? Don’t think so with all these rules.
And oh, did I mention… go kick the monkeys in the ass(et) department :)
17. 17 Jessica Hultcrantz Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:46 PM
And yes the above post IS sarcastisc on purpose if anyone missed that :D
18. 18 WILBER Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:47 PM
Yawn…irrelevent post, why worry about the trademark and how people are using it. Do you think you should be focusing your attention on matters that if fixed will make you even more richer, like grid stability.
The poor performance of the grid as of late along with some less than appealing changes like the lowering of the values of some 13000 island owners land will make the trademark issue a moot point soon. SL will be cooked, its already painfully obvious that thousands of owners have been struggleling to make it work here considering that daily for a period of time transactions have been failing and its now gotten to the point that people are not purchasing items for fear of loseing their hard earned money because of the non funtional grid.
The large joke going around in circles is that everything is broken but the ability of tier and monthly fee collection. I couldnt agree more. I have paid tier of 590usd for a couple years now and cannot for the life of me remember a time that my monthly fee was deducted late but i do remember times when the stipend was late.
We do appreciate the apologies you have made for things being broken but after so many they do seem to be somwhat hollow. All we ask is that you listen to your customer base when we say that we want stability over bling. thank you for all you are doing and dont get me wrong, I love this game and we all want only the best but it is all in your control and if you are swerving all over the road your surely going to throw some of the passengers out the windows.
19. 19 Itsa Game Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:48 PM
This is a game - don’t forget this!
20. 20 thegrimmling Snook Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:49 PM
(responce to post 13)
But realize when you joined you are subject to SL’s TOS and their is thier solftware and their physical hardware and for the most part can do what they wish with.
And for some of the issues with stability and how scripted items work. Most of the contents of SL is “user generated”. SL is only responsible for any scripts they produce or if it involves their physics engine.
And as you mention Business Law, your using their privatly owned and ran product. So Real World business law does not apply.
Linden Labs can tomorrow decide that to own a store or sell anything in SL can require a 20% charge per a sale and it would be legal seeing this is THEIR software, THEIR hardware, and THEIR virtual space.
better way to put it, they allow you to use their products, you have no legal right to anything that even touches their software.
21. 21 Kit Meredith Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:49 PM
Laura, thank you for posting about this and continuing the dialogue. I think we still have some work to do, in order to make sure there’s complete clarity about the policy, but this appears to be a step forward.
One question, though - you conclude by writing:
“The Terms of Service are the conditions under which Linden Lab offers the Second Life services. One of those conditions is adherence to our trademark policy, meaning that any use of our trademarks–both inworld and outside of Second Life–must comply with our policy.”
On its face, this would conflict with some things that Robin Linden said at the last office hours she held on April 8 about not applying the Terms of Service to activities outside of Second Life. She seemed to imply that out-of-world infringement would be handled through RL channels, not the ToS. Would you please explain this apparent disparity?
22. 22 Captain Noarlunga Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:50 PM
Bottom line is that they need to do this before the IPO……. everything else that is being done lately is to enhance the value and desireabilty for prospective shareholders. Fixing the grid is not a priority…..investors look at the returns, not the blogs.
23. 23 Wildefire Walcott Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:55 PM
Thanks very much for the clarifications; this was actually really helpful. I now return you to your regularly scheduled irrelevant blog comments…
24. 24 Obvious Schism Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:55 PM
@ Vivienne - As your attorney, my advice is to remove anything and everything that remotely resembles anything else. This includes the caves themselves as they could be considered copies of other holes that exist (or have existed). Its better just to have nothing at all, as then there is no possible infringement on anything.
25. 25 JayR Cela Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 1:59 PM
Why and the heck didn’t you all do this clear, concise, description in the first place??????????????
JayR Cela
26. 26 Naima aya Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:01 PM
I think this stuff is something that is really boring Linden labs…. :| and now is boring all residents about a symbol ™ or ®. Image that all trademarks ask to use that.
I wonder know why u have a tiny smile on the bottom of the page :)
BTW that trademark really don’t mess me, what mess me Is how the things are going and most part of it is affecting the residents ( a mean the honest ones) and the thief are still laughing on us.
What a world, damm even on a Second life there is something doomed.
Cy ™
27. 27 Alicia Sautereau Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:02 PM
as my email i have sent in regarding the logo, domain name and general crap hasn`t been answerd in lie, ohh, 3-4 weeks atleast, feel free to give me a reply here if your gonna ignore me
http://www.klsl.net
as said in the email, slowly piecing together a new site wich will take another month or 2 to complete as i have service to revamp first befor any of your so called trademark BS
so, what the hell is the answer on the godd@mn domain name use of 2 letters + sl + extension?
28. 28 Vincent Nacon Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:03 PM
@19: nope, it’s a platform… it’s only a game if you turn your sim into a game. ;)
29. 29 cosa nostra Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:04 PM
@20
grimm, oops, I have a VAT number in RL and all my tier to linden is invoiced to my RL company !!! mmhhhhhh ………..so guess they have to comply with law and trading agreements ! right ? if they screw me, I will screw them back !
if ya buy land, same like in rl you pay your tax, but the land is yours, so i dont see any difference, they promote it anyhow as a VIRTUAL WORLD WITH VIRTUAL LAND FOR SALE ! so if they take ya land tomorrow and ya have paid ya tax it is illegal and I will prosecute !
also going back to the trademark subject, this means that from now on, I can use any SECOND LIFE logos, slogans, etc …. out-world ! because no rl laws would apply on this !
cosa
30. 30 Mortus Allen Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:04 PM
Thats all fine and well though my burning question is how do make the little circled R and TM symbols in the first place? Not everyone knows how to do this.
31. 31 Garth FairChang Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:04 PM
Have you registered ‘Hippo’ & ‘Grid’ ?
32. 32 Cincia Singh Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:06 PM
WTG laurap for an intelligent and condensed version of the application of trademark law to our own little virtual world. And @ all the off-topic flaming … and whining … I think SL should charge you a fee for providing this blog for you to use to sharpen your rapier wit (blatant sarcasm) and display your offensive attitude toward anything that doesn’t meet your immediate needs. It’s a game we’re playing, and you’re losing the game. Ok, I’m back inworld and gaming again.
33. 33 MR Little Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:07 PM
I don’t think many residents are upset using the ™or ® on say their blogs that are relating to some biz venture.
However using ™or ® in casual written communications is just silly, have you *ever* seen anybody write:
“My Dell ® keyboard just broke, so I dug up an old Packard Bell ® keyboard I had stashed in the closet.”
“Last night was fun, but i had too many Bacardi ® and Cokes ®”
“Can anybody help? My Ford ® Mustang ® wont start, I think it’s the starter, are the Autozone ® starters any good?”
34. 34 Linden Lab Clarifies Trademark Use « Dusan Writer’s Metaverse Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:07 PM
[...] Clarification here. [...]
35. 35 Eladrienne Laval Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:10 PM
This is a LOT clearer than before…
Now, how about those crashes?
36. 36 cosa nostra Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:10 PM
@33 - fantastic ;-) …….. lmao
37. 37 Obvious Schism Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:11 PM
So how do we get the ™ or ® symbols? Its driving me mad
38. 38 cosa nostra Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:14 PM
type it like this obvious (c) & (TM)
39. 39 cosa nostra Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:14 PM
oops ….. this one also (R)
40. 40 R H Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:18 PM
Where do you avatars get the idea the Second Life™ environment aka world is _a_ game? It allows the creation of many games within it’s confines, and I do mean confines. Wasn’t that long ago we were clearly told by a LL rep here that “all your IP belong to us”
If you bring IP into SL it is LindenLab property.
SL is not a game, it is an environment and exists in the Real World and has already exposed itself and it’s management to Real World repercussions.
Thanx for the clarifications Lauraplinden. One of the rare clearly stated posts we have seen recently emanating from LL®
41. 41 Hopeless Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:19 PM
Who Cares
No one in their right mind is thinking of building or creating anything until there is a stable platform to work with.
Hundreds of lost transactions a day, $’s of lost dollars. I’ll worry about copyright infringement when I can log on long enough to have someone look at my stuff.
Hell it’s Friday. The system won’t be up long enough for me to do anything until Tuesday.
42. 42 Lee Ludd Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:20 PM
#24: “… Its better just to have nothing at all, as then there is no possible infringement on anything.”
Be careful. “nothing at all” ends a famous sonnet by Archibald MacLeish, and I am sure it is still under copyright.
“There in the sudden blackness the black pall
Of nothing, nothing–nothing at all.”
http://poetry.poetryx.com/poems/793/
43. 43 topmate Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:22 PM
This is remarkably generous of the lab.
Concerned with the growth of virtual worlds (?), the lab has been magnanimous in the extreme to act to protect those other worlds. Now, thanks to the implementation of the trademark policy, anyone reading about “the platform currently known as not first life or third life, but something in between” on a blog or website will be in absolutely no doubt about which of the virtual worlds is so unstable and frustrating to its customers that those customers managed to post 150 exasperated comments to a post in only 18 minutes.
Its generosity almost unheard of in a competitive business environment, for a business to ensure that its competitors aren’t tarred with the same brush. Lab, your users who do not waver in their level of support for your respectful treatment of us, salute you.
44. 44 Kyder Ling Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:24 PM
I don’t know exactly how I feel about this. On one hand, it does kind of crimp on some things in world, but at the same time, I am sure there are people who aren’t smart enough and think that websites like ‘men’s second life fashion’ are 100% endorsed and operated by LL.
45. 45 Hopeless Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:24 PM
32 and all you Linden wannabees and free loaders. Talking about this topic is the real off topic conversation. How can anyone seriously think about this crap when I know 2 dozen people who can’t pay their tiers because their businesses are going bankrupt.
Get rid of the camping, bots and fix the damn bugs. I guess if you don’t have any property, that you’ve paid for in Real dollars you can stand back and cheer the fanboys on. I love the ones who say, go ahead and sell more for me, that’s so much BS because if you had paid for your account you would be just as upset as the rest of us.
Today they sent me a customer satisfaction survey. The grid was down, support was down and the phone lines were not working. And they had the gall to send me a customer satisfaction survey.
Damn I can’t wait until the next shareholders meeting.
46. 46 Hopeless Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:25 PM
One last thing.
All week long this system has been crashing. All week long they have been screwing with it. Now the weekend is here, it’s down again and they want to clear the blog of all the “Bad” topics so noobs don’t see how bad things really are.
What next a Torley post?
47. 47 Nimrod Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:25 PM
I wrote to the mentioned email address perhaps the next day when all of this was first blogged here, but got no answer back. Also sent a support ticket as FAQ improvements and it was closed with a sorry, that is the wrong place comment.
Recently I added my site to the brand center and placed the inSL logo in a hope that is good and someone will contact me if not.
But still have an unanswered question. What about machinima? Is that enough if we just add an inSL logo for example to the credits? Is there any difference now between fan videos and commercial videos filmed in SL?
48. 48 Web Page Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:26 PM
I was wondering the same thing 37 but I didn’t know how to ask!
49. 49 Argos Hawks Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:29 PM
In response to #7: “Uses in brand names that are likely to present trademark issues include (but aren’t limited to) those where “SL” refers to “Second Life” and the use doesn’t comply with our license to use “SL”, and those uses for or related to virtual world goods or services.”
The trademark application covers virtual worlds and businesses that provide virtual worlds. It does not cover businesses that provide goods and/or services for use in virtual worlds. You can claim that it does, but that doesn’t make it true.
50. 50 Obvious Schism Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:29 PM
@42 Thank you for pointing that out. Somehow or the other those words came out of my mind in that order. I can’t swear to not having heard Archibald say that though. But there is the slim possibility that I am Archibald himself
51. 51 cosa nostra Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:30 PM
@32
I sold my 2th island back to linden, my 1st one I just cant let my customers down, as hard as it is, I cant !
what do I do, cancel my account and let in one month the island being whiped away by LINDEN, knowing that everyone living there is going to enter one day SL(r)(tm)(c) seeing that there assets are returned to there inventories and there investment is gone !
it is a big descision, but I will play fair and gonna pay back the money they paid for it at root …. thats how I handle customers in rl or in sl
52. 52 Mmmyes Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:31 PM
I wonder if they are going to try registering Second Lag, much like Canadian Tire tried (in vain) to register Crappy Tire a few years ago because so many people referred to it as such.
53. 53 cosa nostra Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:33 PM
in my post 51 I had to refer to post 45 (not 32 !)
54. 54 Anonymous Resident Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:37 PM
It seems things are going without talking to residents… land prices are dropping in 2 weeks, all land owners will have their land devaluated… Is this right for residents ? Or is this better for Linden Lab ?
I won’t discuss longer, but there’s a form of disrespect from Linden Lab I can bear anymore, though I was admirative in front such Linden Genius and creativity… All goes upside down these last month.
Stability is going worth, OK. We must understand that Second Life is a pretty much complex software and it is not easy to develop.
BUT, communication and respect to residents that have financial issues would be welcome and more than normal.
Since then, I was addicted to Second Life as many residents here. But I found that I could free my creativity in a open world, so I switched to OpenSimulator. And I feel so free now.
Viva OpenSim open source !
55. 55 Moveing Out Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:37 PM
LOL!!!
“Any use of “SL” cannot infringe or dilute our trademark.” you do that all by yourselfs eveytime you screw up the grid.Fire the lawers and find some good coders and put them to work debugging your spaghetti code.
56. 56 Alicia Sautereau Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:37 PM
alt + (numpad)0 1 5 3
™
57. 57 Not Again Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:38 PM
This blog post about protecting Linden Labs’ trademarks is longer than the blog about protecting thousands of SL users’ copyrights.
Linden Labs’ priorities are clear.
58. 58 Linden clarification on Trademark | Lost in Bananaverse Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:39 PM
[...] Read the post here - More on Trademarks [...]
59. 59 Gerald Wylie Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:42 PM
Oh, come on. This is all getting a bit ridiculous. My email blog doesn’t have a trade mark symbol and if it has to be used every time the words are used then the words will not get used. Is that good PR.
Soon you’ll be insisting that Donal Pleasant has a subtitle about you when he says, “You only live twice Mr Bond!”.
Crazy
60. 60 Cocoanut Koala Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:43 PM
Nero fiddled while Rome burned.
coco
61. 61 Not Again Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:44 PM
p.s.; this very page (and much more of the site) contains several trademarks (registered or not) which are not owned by Linden Labs. None of these trademarks are noted with a “tm” or (R) symbol.
62. 62 You must be joking Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:45 PM
And of course, users can be aware of and satisfied in the fact that in the United States of America, there is such a thing such as FREEDOM OF SPEECH… and that includes both spoken and written word. Even Trademark law cannot interfere with that basic legal right. Freedom of speech means that so long as you are doing so in a not-for-profit setting, you can say Second Life or Linden Lab or SL about as much as you like, in any form you like, complimentary or disparaging, and there is not much Linden Lab can do about it. IF they decide to ban you for doing so, you CAN take them to court for abuse of your rights of freedom of speech.
Sorry Linden Lab. I respect your right of copyright and trademark and I will even stand by you if such is truthfully abused, but anyone in the business knows that trademark law is pretty much to protect your BUSINESS interests, and has very little to do with non-business areas such as BLOGS.
Corporations try to throw their weight around all the time and they often rely on people’s ignorance of and fear of the law… but as with Copyright Law there are limitations as to the realm and applicability of Trademark Law… and that pretty much is delineated at the point where business and for-profit ends. Just about anyone has the right to write about Linden Lab and Second Life in a not-for-profit, personal-blog setting and pretty much ignore any supposed “Trademark” issues. That’s what’s nice about living in this country– you can pretty much say or print anything you want and as long as it’s not slanderous or libelous… there’s not much anyone– certainly not a lightweight like Linden Lab– can do about it.
63. 63 Plum Planer Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:49 PM
I tought only professional companies had trademarks .. some schoolkids playing with there little toys do not need that .. come one linden kiddies wake up and start working on our game again instaid of trying to be pros.
Plum ®
64. 64 skull oyen Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:51 PM
i cant tp wth
65. 65 Medhue Simoni Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:51 PM
Who the hell cares. Get the grid stable. We already know LL only cares about money now. Personally, as a business man, my main concern is my products. I could give a crap less about names or crap like that. Service and reliablity has been lost in sl for money. I have heard here and here about sl’er revolting but now that virus is spreading. Give back some confidence to your customers LL. Give back some money for that matter. Around the world, people are hurting, and its getting worse. LL is quickly becoming like all the rest, take your money and give u nothing. “The TOS says we can do that”. Well u keep thinking that way and see where that gets u.
66. 66 richard Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:52 PM
thank god we are not bring the real world in here
67. 67 CronoCloud Creeggan Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:53 PM
Okay, my blogspot URL has SL in it: http://ccslfashionista.blogspot.com What I want to know is if you don’t want people to use SL in that fashion or not?
68. 68 Fim de greve e clarificação! at Geta Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:53 PM
[...] CANECO! Não tudo, mas uma clarificação do LL! Bolas, estou tão contente! Parabéns rapaziada! E parabéns blogs portugueses, que ficaram no [...]
69. 69 You must be joking Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:55 PM
BTW everyone, next video tutoral coming from Torley Linden:
“How to put Copyright and Trademark Keyboard Controls (aha!) In Your Second Life Literature!”
“Hi, this is your favoriet watermelon connoseur, TORLEY LINDEN (copyright tradmark). Since the recent LL announcement of trademark policies, a lot of you have been wondering how you can conduct everyday speech, since you don’t know how to place TM and (c) symbols in your writing (such as I just did.. AHA!). Well, I’m here to tell you how…”
/me waiting for the day that the VR world will be based around Open Sim or some competitor that is somewhat less analretentive and more productive than the current company…
70. 70 Obvious Schism Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:59 PM
This is the most interesting debate I have had so far in SL ™ or ®. Normally I would go in-world™ or ® to talk about these issues. However, I find it easier to come to this blog now. I am glad that there is a forum for such topics because without healthy and open discussion, a resolution - or perhaps reconcilliation - is not possible. I will report back to my friends in-world ™ or ® via the wonders of the web networking facility. However, they, like me, may perhaps feel that there is a mismatch, or even a schism, between their perceived virtual reality and the defense of a corporate position. It is still a fascinating construct nonetheless, and one which I obviously will endeavour to follow to the best of my abilities.
71. 71 Medhue Simoni Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 2:59 PM
The crazy part is that most business in sl are towing the line. Informing users and giving support where we can. While LL worries about it name. No1 is hurting the name but u, LL. Taking money for thing that “NEVER” work right is wrong. Dont advertise sl as a place to do business when u cant keep it running and the systems u have in place do not work (the search). All classified ads for the past month should be returned if u had any decency. At the very least.
72. 72 Fellatione Aabye Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:00 PM
Dear Linden Labs,
I personaly am afraid that you are KILLING what once was a fun world called SECOND LIFE. (or killing all criticism in the national and international press?)
OK that you protect your names etc .. but the use of it ??? Pardon my french but even one of the most powerfull companies US based (Microsoft, Pepsi, Doctor Pepper… won t begin a lawsuit or ban someone who dare to speak out the name )
Apparently YOU only care about trademarks (ahum ahum … a smart company would have registered all the trademarks years ago) …. Now on the sudden (Now there is competition coming on the net)
But in my opinion wouldn t it be better first to focus on your “reliability” inworld and in real world ? Because, you are getting branded as unreliable in all points in the outside world.
73. 73 Sahfur Silvera Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:01 PM
Somehow I think we can manage to differentiate between canon and not canon if we were able to even run anything after the tech bugs and almost inevitable tech fixing. An amount of common sense is by default inherent within your user base (except the sad few I will neglect to mention may seem at times as if this isn’t the case). What will we do when everything has an (R) by it in the world? Already useless words plague most languages. Why add to the distopia? Did it ever happen upon your minds that perhaps… just perhaps… The irony that is almost standard in all instances where people who use (R) alot, particularly in blogs, is actually painting a negative self image of corporate paranoia for the ones enforcing it? I am not a product sales rep or anything but typically people shy away from (R) and such because it annoys them. In most areas this has been a very fair transition, yet I feel this needs to be said, although I am certain many others are already saying exactly what I am.
Example: SL (R) (TM) (C) Is a fun place for me to go Timmy! I would love to say more about SL (R) (TM) (C) but my finger gets a cramp from having to type so many annoying characters into my keyboard so I will let you stay with WoW. Have fun Timmy (R) (TM) (C)!
Ooh isn’t this fun? Irony. Its a joke which calls forth despair and debilitated fingers. Ha.. Ha.
I am a huge supporter of SL in general (R) (TM) (C) and the people behind it, but doesn’t it seem that continually shoving (R) in front of peoples face may begin to make them question what else is being done? This is like spending the money you would use for grooming a pet so it can be adequate material for a talent show, on talent show entry fees. “Make sure you make sure it isn’t falling apart before you label your art.” :D Enjoy spinning the next announcement.
74. 74 B00tsy Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:04 PM
@46 exactly..thats why.
I was thinking the same thing when i saw the new blog post.
75. 75 Ice Stawberry Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:04 PM
I really support most of your goals and your ways to achive them. But the need to specify if one talks about the Second Life (R) World or Viewer seems unnessecary complicated and artificial to me.
If I talk about SL I usually mean the complete product which includes server side and viewer side. Is that the Second Life (R) Bundle then???
Best Ice
76. 76 Tao Takashi Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:05 PM
Thanks for the clarification but I still think this is a big big big mistake you do here. The message of what Second Life is has been mostly created by it’s residents and thanks to the fansite guidelines. All those sites out there helped creating that message. They helped doing marketing and they helped making Second Life as big as it is today.
These guidelines have been somewhat revolutionary and the success of them show that it’s the right way to do marketing these days. The new policy is a big step backwards. You had a great crowdsourced marketing strategy in place which is now at stake. You want to control your message but there is no control of a message anymore these days (maybe there never was). The market is the message. Linden Lab always was better than many others at listening to people and this is what you should keep doing. Adjust your platform according to the message the residents create and you will keep a win-win situation.
Additionally I wonder who should own the name of a virtual world they inhabit. Should it be the platform provider or should it be the people. I think the latter. It might be revolutionary in terms of old-school marketing but we are not talking about old-school businessed here, we are talking about the future of the internet.
For me all of this means to concentrate more on things like OpenSim and AWG in order to have a choice between a more and more restrictive Linden Lab and other providers. I am also not sure if I should or even be allowed to present Second Life at conferences/barcamps. Probably not.
I hope you will understand that we are one. There is no Second Life without the residents and there is no Second Life without Linden Lab. We equally created it and thus I think we equally should be able to use it’s name as we see fit (with the exception of alternative virtual worlds). So bring back the fansite guidelines. They made sense, the new ones don’t.
77. 77 Want clarification Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:07 PM
OK Second Life has a Trade Mark…So what?
What Id like to Know is As your a Virtual Company In Real World What About The REal World Companies that Trade And Do business With in Second Life Are There Trade Marks Protected Too?
Also Us the Gamers /Creators who make Second Life What It Is Is our Content Our Work Our Scripts Our Builds Protected By CopyWrite Laws? oh wait thats intelectual copywrite or something?
What I want Is FairHandedness If u on band Wagon About Copywrite Then All Companies wether Virtual or Not Should Have there Brands Legally Recognised as CopyWrite Too Lindens Or is it same Senerio as with the world in reality? ONE LAW FOR US ONE LAW FOR YOU!!
And on another note off Topic If you Dont stop being Biased to us ATI Graphic card users your gonna lose alot of creative Talent from Sl and alot of money too..as i cant stay connected for more then 10mins a DAY!!!!!
78. 78 Grace Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:08 PM
Thanks for addressing the community concerns in a clear (and timely) manner - it is very much appreciated.
79. 79 Renee Faulds Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:10 PM
Why don’t you try fixing SL than spouting your mouths off threating residents !! Jeez you people really have the balls don’t you !!!!
80. 80 Geneko Nemeth Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:12 PM
Use the “Character Map” application. Both Windows and GNOME ships with one. ♪
81. 81 Renee Faulds Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:14 PM
Threating residents over trademarks with no notice perm ban!!!
How about we tkae action against you for inventory loss, business losses. Some RL Law firm going to OWN YOU one of these days!!!
Phil where your 2/3rd’s of my monthly tier !!!!!!!!!!!
82. 82 Kyder Ling Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:16 PM
“Why don’t you try fixing SL than spouting your mouths off threating residents !! Jeez you people really have the balls don’t you !!!!”
–#79
Well guys, let’s begin checking this post out. First, there are ambiguous issues with SL that need fixing. Great feedback there. And then we have an accusation of threats, accompanied by 2, (count them) two exclamation points. And then an acusation about LL saying that they have testicles, followed by four exclamation points. Needless to say, the addition of this extra exclamation points increase the importance of this comment and thus must be worth reading, maybe even several times.
Okay really though, could you fools stop being so pathetic. If you want to make a jab at a big company who’s product you cannot live without, I would suggest you at least put some damn time and effort into it. Post “Since the last patch, I have been crashing more often than ever,” rather than “ZOMG FIX SL!!!!!!!!!”
Seriously, I am begining to get on my last nerves.
83. 83 FlipperPA Peregrine Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:17 PM
I agree with Tao. After encouraging many of us for years to do what you’re now saying isn’t allowed, you’ve now managed to make most of the popular Second Life a violation. To wit: SLUniverse.com, SLExchange.com, SLProfiles.com, SLTrivia.com, SLGuide.com - the operators of these web sites, myself included, have spent a lot of time, money, and effort promoting these sites with the Linden blessing. That’s to speak nothing of all the work done on search engine optimization, which now is all for naught.
Bad, bad move. I’ve very disappointed. So much for helping the community.
84. 84 nika talaj Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:17 PM
I notice that Reuters continues its casual, unmarked usage of both “SL” and “Second Life” in stories on its SL-branded website, “Second Life News Center”. I assume that usage within all news stories (and blog postings) on SL-specific sites that are named/branded in accordance with your policy can follow that casual use convention as well, yes?
I further note that SLX (SL Exchange) continues operation with that naming, with this statement on their home page:
“Second Life and the inSL logo are trademarks of Linden Research, Inc.
Virtuatrade, LLC is not affiliated with or sponsored by Linden Research. ”
I assume that SLX has worked out their naming and branding so it is in compliance, yes? (After all, Ansche Chung is an investor!) I ask because this may point to a satisfactory outcome for some of the site owners who have been expressing concern here.
85. 85 Veronica Quackenbush Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:18 PM
@6 Vivienne:
Thanks for mentioning your caves, I will certainly come and check them out :) but I don’t think you need to worry. As LL acknowledge under question 6, they’re huge fans of parody. If you’re worried they might get nasty, offer to build another cave as a DPW project, then it won’t be unofficial anymore ;)
@14 Soundsmith:
I understand your frustration, but allow me to paraphrase your question: Is it impossible to post something that IS related to performance or other technical problems in blog threads about these problems? The answer, sadly, is YES, most of the time it is impossible, because comments are routinely closed on these threads (This is not disparagement, it may be injurious but it is not false, anyone can back it up with numbers simply by counting recent blog posts. Look for the ones glibly marked [RESOLVED] B)
So I can sympathize with the people who complain about technical problems here. They have nowhere else to go. Also, while some of these complaints are mere whining, people do sometimes have useful things to say about technical issues–useful workarounds for example. I’ve recently discovered a very useful and efficient workaround for deep freezelag (the kind where you grind along at 6 frames per minute) and I’ve been trying to make noise about it here (and in the JIRA), but I have no idea how many people catch it, since I can’t put it in the threads that *matter*
FWIW, here it is again: if you’re having major trouble with freezelag, try the following
(1) create an alt (or use one you already have)
(2) launch two instances of the SL viewer (preferably different versions, like one 1.19 and one 1.18), one with yourself, one with your alt
(3) your overall average fps will go down, but you will have no more freezelag; basically, you fill in the troughs with the peaks, smoothing out your overal frame rate
It’s crazy, it’s counterintuitive as hell, and IT REALLY WORKS, so I think it’s worth making a noise about, even if I can’t do it where it belongs.
86. 86 Say What? Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:19 PM
If SL is day-to-day basically marginally functional… then the SL brand is basically worthless… so why bother to protect a brand that has become the metaphor for things that don’t work?
87. 87 Delgado Cinquetti Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:22 PM
@6 - I’m almost certain, that your art on the cave walls are permitted. Providing, of course, they are not used in conjuntion with Satanic ritualistic orgies.
88. 88 lauraplinden Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:22 PM
@21 - Thanks, Kit. The TOS governs your relationship with Linden Lab and your use of the Second Life services. Your relationship with us includes how you use our trademarks–both inworld and outside of Second Life. Was the office hours discussion about infringement of Resident intellectual property on sites or services that Linden Lab doesn’t operate? If so, that’s something that Residents should take up with the person who infringed or with the other site or service. This doesn’t fall within our TOS because it’s not about infringement on our services or your relationship with us. Hope this explanation helps.
@ 27, 47 - I’ll look into what happened to your emails and make sure you get responses. We’ve received lots of email questions and are trying to respond as quickly as we can. I’ll also make sure questions submitted as support tickets get re-routed to the right place. Thanks for calling this to our attention.
89. 89 Incony Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:22 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Life
suggests we put this blog in our inventories and lose it…
“A more disturbing fault, believed to be caused by the same issue, is “inventory loss” [84] [85] [86] in which items in a user’s inventory, including those which have been paid for, can disappear without warning or permanently enter a state where they will fail to appear in world when requested (giving an “object missing from database” error). Linden Labs offers no compensation for items that are lost in this way, and will not even record the data for debugging purposes if the user is not a Premium subscriber [87]; although many in-world businesses will attempt to compensate for this or restore items, they are under no obligation to do so and not all are able to do so. This fault alone has caused some users to abandon the world.[”
“trademark object missing from database”
“Linden Labs offers no compensation for items that are lost in this way, and will not even record the data for debugging purposes if the user is not a Premium subscriber ”
yup.. lets get priorities right… you first..me second… never mind who`s money it is that maintains the value of the trade mark.
90. 90 Don Duke Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:24 PM
If multi-billionaire Bernie Ecclestone can’t trademark “F1″ I doubt LL would win a court case regarding “SL”.
quote: “It is no secret that Bernie Ecclestone has tried several times and at great cost to trademark the names F1 and Formula 1. He has, for the most part, been unsuccessful because of the generic nature of the phrase, “formula 1.” ”
Just like “a second life” is pretty generic, imo.
quote: “Repentance is the renewal of baptism. Repentance is a contract with God for a second life.” (St. John Climacus, 6th century AD)
My 2Cents©
91. 91 Cynthia Deere Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:25 PM
I understand your concern with your own trademark but how can you really enforce it when you allow copyright infringement against companies like Disney every day and do nothing? Case in point, many of the pajama companies and Shirts R Us
92. 92 Jay Townsend Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:29 PM
@ 85 - also counterintuitive, my freezelag got better when i turned voice on. I never ran it. I had a customer that wanted to talk at me a couple of weeks ago though so i turned it on to listen to them. Since then, no freezelag. maybe an odd coincidence, maybe nothing to it, but for some it may be woth a try.
On the daily issues, bugs, and brokeness plauging the grid…
It is high time a CEO calls the top people at LL into a conferance room, hands them a 300 page printout of the posts of the increasingly discouraged residents made to this blog over the past two months. Tell everyone to start reading, and leave the room. Come back four hours later and say everyone seated in rows 4, 7, 16, and 22….you are fired, leave. Now for the rest of you we will have one of these meetings every month untill this *holds up a copy of the 300 page handout* is better. Now, go get to work.
93. 93 trademark issue | Ana Lutetia Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:31 PM
[...] will find in the official Second Life® blog some clarification about the trademark policy that was concerning a lot of SL™ bloggers as posted [...]
94. 94 Sigmund Leominster Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:34 PM
Now there’s a blow. Since joining SL™ last November, I’ve been able to use my intials, SL, quite happily. My blog and podcast, “SL on SL” will now have to change! I believe I should be able to claim a copyright on SL© as “Sigmund Leominster” but clearly need to conform to the trademark of SL for the Second Life™ brand name.
Henceforth I think I should be OK with “SL© on SL™” withiout getting into trouble.
I also suggest that folks responding to this posting also respect MY copyright and refer to me as SL© or Sigmund Leominster©” on first referencing me in an article. After that, feel free to use plain old Siggy - just mark it Siggy© first time aorund.
OK?
95. 95 BrightAngel Summers Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:37 PM
Its good you adreess the issue of trademarks in your name ,because i was getting a little annoyed looking up sl in search and finding it belonged to so many websites when i wasnt even looking for secondlife i still came up with the outages amount of websites out there , soo yeah its good you brought it up, now residents can now protect them selves from imposters of their own trade marks as well, including my own and others i know just by looking at them ; old timers are ok but the newer ones need to learn to stop taking other peoples works and start doing their own .
as for the other issues, wish you would address them in the same manner as this like lost inventory lagginess , etc to manyt to adress here but every one will agree LL , you need to adress all issues soon not a year later.
96. 96 IAm Zabelin Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:37 PM
Hi lauraplinden
When is your next in-world meeting / office hours on IP theft of user content ? And who is taking leadership of this important issue.
I realize it may be less important than SL trademark, but to the millions of users the reverse is true, so hopefully that should balance it out.
Can you please set up scheduled office hours for this.
thx
97. 97 Dave Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:39 PM
Clear first old bugs before programming and adding new ones…
98. 98 Wynochee LeShelle Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:44 PM
Happy to have my own brands, logos, signs for my biz, wherever on planet or on technical platforms. No need to refer to a company wich name I have forgotten most of the time. So, no need to struggle with symbols or kilometers of written blabla. I feed them with fees, automaticaly each month, but doing my own thing, without using the name of any other or this… company. Have enough to do, to hold my inventory fit and to find the small moments, when a transaction is maybe, for a minute, possible, or to bring and edit a thing on my area. The use of this technical platform will maybe last as long until some better ones will appear somewhere on globe for less or no fees. Actual status of potential competitors are so far able, to give a picture that we will see some quality alternatives in near future. They are on their way, for free, for less fees or for reasonable fees and conditions. It is all about stability, customer service, quality, user-friendly behavior and price. In case of better conditions, somewhere, the move is ever just a mouseclick away. Easy decision, then. Would not be the first emigration of a population on earth, since egyptian or iceage times, for example. This is also possible in digital times, to vote with feets, or, as said, with mouseclicks, if things are uncomfy here and mor comfy there. Exact so easy is that in result.
99. 99 Reality Check Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:44 PM
#33 HAHAHAHA sad but true.
To my understanding that is what this post has stated, the each time someone used the words second life together, would need to put a copyright logo next to it, and not only that but to follow it by a noun. You have got to be kidding me right.
I would like to see this enforced on anything other than people using the trademarked name to sell or advertise products or services.
In common dialog or written communication, I have nor will I EVER use a trademark sign, that is just stupid.
And to those who are complaining about so many people making complaints about connectivity and inworld issues. If there were not so many issues, people would not need to complain so much.
Linden Labs really does not care about its residents in its virtual world, they are just another large corporation interested in their monetary gain. Does this really surprise you.
And to the post about some linden stating “they own all IP addresses” GET REAL. I seriously hope this was a mistranslation.
To those who actually pay for this game, i really feel sorry for you. And yes it is a game, whether you use it for business or pleasure.
I think that LL is going to find themselves in some serious legal battles in the near future. Because their program not only messes with the viewer now, it also messes with other applications running on your pc. The code writers need some refresher courses perhaps? If the new versions are an attestment to their abilities, it is a sad sad day indeed. LL stop hiring coders that have no clue how to fix things, and only create more problems.
Oh and why report an issue? They never get answered anyway. I learned that after posting several times on an issue, well over 6 months ago, and to my knowledge still having the issue.
I always laugh when i see a resolved issue on the welcome screen. It is amazing they work for LL when they obviously have no idea what a simple word like resolved means(that is like a 3rd grade vocab no?)
Do we need to give the employees of LL a reeducation?
I know i always make sure to tell people of the thousands of issues i face every week with this “game”.
What makes me stay are the residents and nothing else.
LL get ur head out of your rear!!!
100. 100 Wondering Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:45 PM
I know this may be a silly question, but I can’t find the answer.
Particularly considering the way its worded in the TOS.
How does this affect wearing or giving away clothing with the hand logo on it in world.
The wording sounds like even wearing existing stuff made by Lindens could be against the TOS.
I have some I made awhile back and some others made by others that I acquired as freebies. Can I wear these can I continue to give them away?
Does Linden Labs not want people wearing the logo in world, that could be called displaying it depending on interpretation.
Separately, what if I sell them for $1L (I cant find a multi vendor that handles $0L)
101. 101 Trinity Nabob Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:50 PM
@40 it’s what ever ppl want it to be. If I log on with the intention of treated it like it is a hobby, fun, or a game that is MY business. If I log on and try to start a business that again is MY business. It is not however up to another subscriber to tell me how to treat SL. As it is MY business, so mind your own and stop telling me how to enjoy MY second life. YOU don’t pay MY tier.
Cat Cotton
102. 102 IAm Zabelin Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:50 PM
@97 … ok, let me amend that (96)… “to the users that create any content of value the reverse is true”
103. 103 Vint Falken Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:51 PM
While you are in full compliance with the usage guidelines described here, you may use the “Second Life” name on your website, as well as the related logos and graphics available at Toolkit, solely in the form described there.
YOU gave us the fan kit. YOU promoted using ‘Second Life’ and ‘SL’. The fankit content is now on our HD’s and our websites. As far as I’m concerned, this does not go away.
For blogs that are just about Second Life, this is an easy way to go. But it’s important that the blog name be more prominent than the byline. And if the name uses the words “SL” or “inSL,” it should follow our license for this (or be under a separate written license like the SLED Blog).
So if your blog is titled ‘my second life’, ‘Ilyas’ Second Life’ or ‘Das Tweedes Leben’, you’re still screwed? Same if your URL contains Second Life or SL without two generic nouns? *sighs*
104. 104 IAm Zabelin Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:52 PM
Yeah, agree 101, if its just a game … for many its a bloody (far too) expensive game!
105. 105 Ciaran Laval Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:53 PM
Why can Information week ignore these guidelines and yet Second Life bloggers who promote your product are threatened with having their accounts terminated? Why are Second Life residents being held to higher standards than the mainstream press? If it’s in marketing material I see your point of making everything correct, if it’s in general conversation I do not and this is ridiculously restrictive. Please grow up and recognise fair use for what it is.
106. 106 Toy LaFollette Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 3:56 PM
LL will do as they please whether we like it or not but I do see the idiocy of protecting Rome while its burning to the ground.
107. 107 uh-oh Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:00 PM
Wow this is confusing. So if I mention Second Life tm, stand up, sit down, spin on my head and click my heels twice. when typing to some on or in a blog i have to use this? I can see if i am endorsing SL tm, stand up, sit down, spin on my head and click my heels twice.
having to use it. Or using Second Life tm, stand up, sit down, spin on my head and click my heels twice. as a brand name. Maybe adding this topic about using SL tm, stand up, sit down, spin on my head and click my heels twice. To the tip of the week that is put out.
I wouldn’t want to get in trouble for using Second life tm, stand up, sit down, spin on my head and click my heels twice. the wrong way.
108. 108 coventina dalgleish Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:03 PM
This has little impact on the experience of second life. Perhaps it would if the game functioned. Day after day of total failure of the services you advertise. Soon it will not matter because sales have been so bad because you can not control your environment that many will be leaving because I/we refuse to expend more hard cash on something that fails to deliver the promised product. Phil stated last year the focus was going to be on fixing the bugs in the game. I have seen no improvement and in fact more have been introduced.
LINDEN LAB it is time to assign your priority’s your trademark will just be a memory of another failed dot com if you do not.
Actions do speak much louder than words as demonstrated by this product.
109. 109 Thili Playfair Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:05 PM
*crash into wall of text*
Fine fine, more words,
Now how about trying to enforce it instead of making up more stuff that you dont even bother checking up on anyway, i could just quickly mention the “no gambling” rule as one, oh it take me less then 5 min to find a place that has one still, and no its not old at all.
Report?,
dont make me laugh, never seen any of my reports ever get a reply or fixed issue and its going on for months , no make that over a year now, only thing that is “fixed” nowadays is just workarounds instead of a fix, quite lame.
Need a oar?, cause you guys seem to be “rowing” alot from your crowd of people that made SL what it is, and completly deaf to our cries /point jira , sorry that place is a mess and alot of them are months old nothing fixed yet.
110. 110 Greve findada… « Education in virtual/real worlds Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:05 PM
[...] Acabou o período de greve bloguista SL®. Efeitos? Um post no blogue oficial “deles”. Não é mau na medida em que se percebe que até estiveram atentos a esta greve…mas é [...]
111. 111 Linden Lab tries to explain the new trademark policy again… and fails.. — mrtopf.de Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:15 PM
[...] Linden Lab tried to clarify again what is and what isn’t allow regarding the use of the term S… because of all the confusion and protests going on. [...]
112. 112 Neural Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:18 PM
It’s amusing watching Linden Lab™®©(wtf)(bbq) slowly strangle themselves to death with all this sort of sillyness. Keep at it guys, it provides humor while we wait for you to make up the next excuse for the daily teleport/transaction/inventory failures.
113. 113 BloodDoll Lulu Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:20 PM
crazy
114. 114 Tom Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:31 PM
I have seen alot of sites using the official secondlife Logo on their header fot the web page so I understand where LL are coming from but to those wondering about the words like second life SL ect that are used in normal type on a web page be it in blog chatting or general talking in type text you wont have to put a ® after every word unless you use their brand name on products or services like headers ect not in chat type.
115. 115 R H Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:32 PM
@Reality Check Says:
…
And to the post about some linden stating “they own all IP addresses”
…
IP refers to _I_ntellectual _P_roperty
not TCP/IP addressing
sheesh!
and then you have the temerity to complain about others’ command
of vocabulary
That’s Funny™
116. 116 SecondLife - How To Make Money In Second Life » More on Trademarks Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:34 PM
[...] post by lauraplinden [...]
117. 117 Ishtara Rothschild Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:34 PM
You forgot one most important point. Quote from http://secondlife.com/corporate/brand/insl/guidelines.php
“Do not display the inSL logo in or on materials or items that in Linden Lab’s sole opinion: [...] Are pornographic or include adult or mature content, or content that is not displayed in a manner suitable for a PG rating [...]”
This is quite a slap in the face for the industry that keeps SL popular and continues to draw new people onto the grid. The same can be said about your new policy regarding classified ads. Quote:
“You may continue to advertise mature events, services, objects, businesses etc…, but any pictures or text related to any such classified must be PG in nature.”
It’s a bit tricky, to say the least, to advertise mature wares while meeting PG standards. In more concise words, if you can’t say “penis” or, Quetzovercoatl forbid, show a prim genital, it becomes pretty much impossible to advertize the aforementioned article. Not to mention that the mature flag for classifieds has become utterly pointless now.
And not to speak of LL’s habit to delete advertisements without a refund - imagine the editorial staff of a magazine would do that, not publish an ad but charge for it. Or to mention LL’s habit to only (overre)act on ARs instead of enforcing the same rules for everyone, which creates an ugly business environment where people can easily get rid of competitors by screaming “their ad shows a nipple!”
How exactly do you expect SL to become the next stage of the internet without adult content being available and easy to find? Look at the current world-wide web: It became popular through porn, and now that it has turned into a serious business platform, there are more adult websites than ever. Which doesn’t keep any reputable company from creating an internet presence. My guess is that SL owes an even larger part of its popularity to adult entertainment than the 2D internet. Trying to hide what attracts the masses will only lessen the attractivity of this platform to investors, once the user masses have left.
So, why exactly does even a prim genital in a mature classified ad have to be hidden from the public eye? Perhaps because the adult grid has been turned into a place where everyone (and all ages) can sign up pretty much anonymously and without an age check? Well, iIt’s either Disneyland online or the SL adult grid, you can’t host both on the same servers. Unless you hurry up with the long planned, long overdue and almost forgotten age verification. Any news on that?
118. 118 Chriz Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:35 PM
This is all very well… but to quote your own words:
“Outside the United States, do not use these trademark notice symbols. Instead, use the appropriate trademark attribution notice, for example: “Second Life and LindeX are trademarks of Linden Research, Inc.”
So perhaps you need to clarify that for all of us non-American SL ‘citizens’…
Second Life and LindeX are trademarks of Linden Research, Inc :-)
119. 119 coventina dalgleish Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:38 PM
I see your legal department is still trying to justify their existence.
Nice work Lab
Perhaps if you listened to your customers requests a little more there would be less critical acclaim in the blogs and then salient responses would appear like magic.
You can judge your success by the quality of information sent to you in these blogs.
I observe a common theme in the data supplied to you in this forum and it is not at all positive.
Nothing is BETA after eight years, unless you can not come up with another excuse.
I have never seen an online game that makes as many updates with the frequency that Linden Lab creates them. Perhaps it is time to go back to the once per week update, at least we would know when to expect it and if it did not occur that would be even better.
Sorry for the second blog post I normally try to refrain from taking space from others but the condition of the game warrants another response. It is totally frustrating to be totally frustrated everyday with this product. If not for the friends made here I would not bother because the rest of the experience is painful.
120. 120 Donal Randt Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:43 PM
People act like this is the only place in the world that is changing their policy on use of their trademarks. Well guess what? It isn’t. There are changes happening everywhere.
Linden Research owns the trademark, they can choose who uses it and how it is used. That is what owning the trademark means. They are not compelled in any way to allow anybody to use it. Just the same as you are not compelled to allow somebody to borrow your car simply because they want to.
And since I have already interrupted this whine-fest I might as well add: How does griping about grid stability have anything to do with Trademark use? And with that - do you people posting in this manner actually think that the people who work on the programming end of things have dropped what they are doing to get involved in the Trademark issues? Or do you think that maybe, just maybe, there are people in the legal department that deal with legal things, and that the programmers and technicians are dealing with programming things? I know its wild and crazy, but maybe it’s just crazy enough to be true?????
To anyone looking to actually understand the trademark policy, it is pretty simple as stated in this blog. But then again, so was the first one. To the rest - let the whining continue…..
121. 121 Montana Corleone Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:43 PM
@6 Cave art like you have would be regarded as pastiche, or parody, and exempt therefore, as it falls under Fair Use, much like Andy Warhol used the Campbell’s soup tin in a painting.
@ 84 and 105 Use in news reporting is a Fair Use example, otherwise news reports would have a terrible time every time they mentioned a company and product.
In the same vein, use in speech is allowed, and that includes chat, IMs, forums, and comments on blogs. You don’t after all, say to your bf/gf “I’m going to get a Coke® from the fridge.” So actually, in commenting on forums or blogs, you don’t need to bother with marks at all.
The blog here is well covered by LL themselves and TM ownership pretty obvious. On your own web site or blog, as the rules state, if you are in the US, you need to add the marks just to the first or most prominent occurrence, plus the disclaimer notice. If you are outside the US, you do not put the marks (mostly because such trademarks have not yet been granted, where applied for), just the disclaimer notice, which would normally be a small disclaimer notice at the foot of the main page, like you see on a lot of sites.
Basically TM is to protect the company, ie to stop people associating themselves, or passing off a similar product, or implying endorsement from LL. But only for a specific example. eg if you search the EU trademark database, you will find a lot of companies with the trademark Linden, eg Linden Foods, so if you sell food, you are breaking theirs, if you are selling a metaverse, then it will be Linden Labs’.
You can also use TMs as verbs, adverbs or adjectives without marks, so saying Lindened, is okay, as in the sense of attempting to fix something and making it worse. So you hoovered the carpet, or sellotaped it together are allowable uses.
It just requires a bit of common sense. Like copyright. If it is a news report, for research, or education, you can use parts, but you can’t copy it for personal use or for commerce. Thus, you can say Second Life is pretty crappy atm, because that is fair comment on a blog like this, and although disparaging, true at this point in time. If Linden Research Inc bothered to fix it, then it would no longer apply, but it seems they are more interested in protecting their IP, ignoring that of residents, and avoiding fixing what residents have been asking to be fixed for over a year, in favour of yet more shinies overloading the system.
To be honest, I’m not sure why they are bothering, since Second Life is becoming a joke everywhere - the metaverse that used to work™.
SL RIP. Oh, right, yesterday was the Day of Remembrance, not that it was working most of the day yet again…
122. 122 Salome Strangelove Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:44 PM
Laura, you need to take care when you make statements like this: “The TOS governs your relationship with Linden Lab and your use of the Second Life services. Your relationship with us includes how you use our trademarks–both inworld and outside of Second Life.”
Our TOS relationship with Linden Lab starts and ends on your platform. You do not have the right or the ability to police the internet. If you are going to take action outside of the platform than that should be through RL channels, as Robin indicated in her office hours.
Moreover, how does Linden Lab presume to establish identity (virtual or otherwise) outside of their own domain? You can hold “Salome Strangelove” to task for what happens in-world because it is an account I hold with you on your platform. But anyone on the web can do whatever they like and go around calling themselves Salome Strangelove and I have no say in the matter. How exactly do you plan to determine if John Smith in SL is John Smith on some random website?
Just like this new trademark policy runs the risk of invalidating itself for over-reaching, so does the area of the TOS that addresses it. Most of us blog about SL because we’ve identified with it and remain, on some level, devoted to its longevity and development. But, if you want the business community of SL to take you seriously, and responsible residents to adhere to policies, then you need to get yourselves on the same page. Preferably one that clearly explains policies you can reasonably enforce.
123. 123 John B. Sandlin Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:45 PM
Folks, understand that the owners of a trademark _must_ protect that trademark or risk losing it. Just exactly how repressive is it that they ask that we users of their service do them the courtesy of honoring their legal rights (by using (R) or (TM) where required (don’t know how to easily enter the symbols in a blog comment)).
With the recent spate of Intellectual Property theft well publicized in world, we should be cogniscent of the need for them to protect theirs.
JBS
124. 124 Alvi Halderman Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:47 PM
Lol pretty strange the getafirst life website…………
i hope i wont need to say Linden Lab™®© or Second Life™®©
could be boring finding out how to make that simbols!
ol
125. 125 More of The Same on Trademarks | VintFalken.com Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:50 PM
[...] Although it may clarify some things, I will reference to this official Linden blogpost as More of The Same on Trademarks. I suggest we still march on Sunday and my 10000L$ bounty for best Linden Trademark Parody still [...]
126. 126 John B. Sandlin Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:52 PM
Oh - and a point I forgot a moment ago, I’m imagine the people working on the legal issues, logo licensing, and trademark issues are a different set from those working to fix issues in the service. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want trademark experts touching the code! I doubt we want the programmers doing the legal research. If the Linden’s are like most other corporations, they have people that specialize and concentrate in their areas. If they don’t - that might explain a lot (kidding).
JBS
127. 127 Good Grief Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 5:07 PM
well,,, let me tell you… it is interesting to read all of these comments… but you are all arranging deck chairs on the Titanic… none of this will ever matter to anyone if SL is not a highly reliable product… no person no company will ever care about what happens here… SL will become an HBS case study for how insular techie nerds are always doomed to fail… protection of the SL brand is a waste of time… on this particular blog you are all engaging in the lawyers gambit… let’s rack up some billable hours while we still can… sorry but unless senior management wakes up (not likely given the trajectory) this whole exercise will just become a case study in how now to do it. Sorry SL’ers but you are wasting your time.
128. 128 nika talaj Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 5:07 PM
If folks want to continue discussion after comments close, see forum thread: http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=254075
@lauraplinden: There still seems to be confusion, I see some residents throwing up their hands in despair here. The problem with sending questions to your trademark team is that the answers are not shared publicly, so no learning takes place.
May I suggest that a Linden start a “Trademark Q&A” thread in the RA section of the forums, and answer some specific questions about resident’s websites/businesses for a few days? If the community sees LL’s reasoning in action in specific real world cases, I think it might help. Questions that are too complex to be answered in that venue could simply be referred to tm-questions as above.
The forums are a fairly safe place for this, being unsearchable by Google etc., and postable only by payment-info-on-file residents.
129. 129 Tasman Perth Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 5:16 PM
Whats going on here, I believe, is the normal Linden Lab employees, who have normal human common sense, are starting to pay too much attention to the “village idiots”, better known as lawyers, who infest too many otherwise good companies. I suspect its gonna get worse before it gets better….
130. 130 Kit Meredith Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 5:21 PM
@88 - LauraP, thanks for responding to my question. I think your efforts to engage the community in this way - assuming it continues into the future - will do a lot to heal the discord caused by the branding policy announcement. :)
No, the discussion with Robin wasn’t over third parties infringing Resident content on external sites. The discussion last week was directly on the branding policy and the fact that compliance with the guidelines had been explicitly written into the ToS as Section 4.4. I know that Robin doesn’t like us quoting her from office hours, so I won’t post the chat log, but to paraphrase she told us that Linden Lab had no intention of banning anyone for infringing its trademarks - according to her, any infringement would be dealt with through RL channels (presumably the courts). That sounds completely different than what you’re saying now.
If that policy has changed, so be it, but we need that to be said to us explicitly, and the Lindens need to speak with a consistent voice on this. I would like to find a time that the two of us, Gwyn if she’ll join us, and Robin can sit down so that we can make sure everyone is on the same page.
I don’t have a problem with Linden Lab protecting its trademarks within the bounds of the law. I also don’t have a problem with policy changes so long as there isn’t detrimental reliance by residents on the old policy. But because there is legal liability potentially riding on this, Linden Lab needs to be as explicit as possible in communicating things. Getting different messages from different Lindens isn’t helping that.
Thanks again.
131. 131 Your Nosey Neighbor Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 5:26 PM
It’s sickening how those who regularly bash LL on 3rd party forums and blogs are actually expecting to be “grandfathered” in or may be waiting on some exception letter to “get out of jail free”.
What part of “strategic for business” don’t people understand?
If you are not a part of the solution, then you are a part of the problem and I wouldn’t expect LL to grant any type of exception for sites that have users that regularly bash LL or make SL look unprofessional.
Have fun thinking up new domain names!
132. 132 IAm Zabelin Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 5:35 PM
Unfortunately this is even a bigger slap in our faces - in that LL have done nothing about the IP theft in-world, since they made written promises YEARS ago, when business owners shut up shops and walked out.
Yet as soon as a perceived need arises to think about protecting their trademark, they throw everything at it, and still do nothing to look after their users rights and investments … who after all created and paid for it all.
_________________________________
LAURAP LINDEN … please stand up and let us know when IP theft office hours are ?
And also who is in charge of resolving the out-of-control IP theft issues?
Also, why is LL is sitting back allowing thief’s to copy our content? instead of piling pressure on, and implementing anti-theft strategies.
Why is it of such little importance that it doesn’t even warrant actions?
133. 133 Alicia Roeth Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 5:43 PM
Incredible. Never have i seen such a lengthy explanatory post. Perhaps a Linden (can I actually type Linden…ooops did it again) could take the time to answer some of the issues that cause real concern. Issues which have been around for the 18mths I have been part of this “game”. This is an incredible and blatant instance (and by far the first) od Linden Lab publicly stating they are concerened with themselves first and foremost and NOT their paying customers.
Disgusted so much time has been spent on this.
134. 134 sweet primrose Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 5:57 PM
Has Linden Labs trademarked “Transaction Failure”? :D
135. 135 Renee Faulds Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 6:00 PM
No but they are seriously working on trademarking “We ran everybody out of business”.
PHIL - Where is your 2/3rd’s of my $54,000 monthly tier ??
BORKED BORKED BORKED
If you had any poseballs Phil you’d pay up - seeing how this is now being blogged about else where that you have no poseballs..
Renee Faulds
136. 136 Nominative Fair Use « Sean Heying’s Blog Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 6:03 PM
[...] Second Life® in your blog now requires you be aware of the new rules in regards to trademarks. Today’s SL blog topic from the Lab lists slightly more clarification on nominative fair use, that is our ability to use the words [...]
137. 137 Jazzman Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 6:10 PM
#’s 19 and 28
I prefer to think of it not as a game, more like a platform, but really like a cedar deck with dryrot.
I’m truly surprised there are Lindens not working on stability 8-|
138. 138 Alexander Regent Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 6:15 PM
hmmmm….I wonder if “Suckond Life” is trademarked? (patent pending, patent pending, patent pending)
It works on soooo many different levels….don’t cha think? :-P
139. 139 Nyte Caligari Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 6:35 PM
This has probably been said over and over here… however….
Did you guys really just post that? Transactions have been failing daily, multiple time daily, hourly, etc. And… we’re discussing trademarks? I do understand the need and importance for trademarks, but really, don’t you think your priorities are a bit off here?
140. 140 Kandy Tomorrow Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 6:36 PM
Frankly, if I were Linden Lab™©®, I wouldn’t want to be associated with the name Second Life™©® after how horrendous it’s been the past week. Solution to the bloggers and press though, easiest way to avoid all these new rules is to just not mention Second Life™©® altogether….
[Second Life™©® is a registered trademark of Linden Lab™©® and any use of the Second Life™©® and Linden Lab™©® trademarks used here is not to be construed as representing the views of Linden Lab™©®]
141. 141 Kula Anatine Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 6:47 PM
why cant we post or use the trademark in a non service or product way like blogs or fansites dedicated to Second life ® ™ noun. and of course people would know if something was LL or not yet again LLs concept of most people made clear. Second life ® ™ noun Second life ® ™ noun Second life ® ™ noun Second life ® ™ noun Second life ® ™ noun Second life ® ™ noun Second life ® ™ noun Second life ® ™ noun Second life ® ™ noun Second life ® ™ noun Second life ® ™ noun People dont forget when you chat inwould dont get caught with out using a noun of trademark after saying of referring to Second life ® ™ noun
142. 142 ronin devinna Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 6:50 PM
My business partners(we have 4 islands and others business) was banned because some Alter, report that she have no age to be in sl…she have 35 years old!!!!!!!!…LindenLab dont accept portuguese BI, only passport…she have no passport… how about to fix that things ?
Thanks a lot.
143. 143 ronin devinna Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 6:51 PM
her name is Violeta Yakan.
144. 144 U M Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 7:02 PM
Questen is what about older items that breaks Copyright rules? If we have them in our inventory?
145. 145 U M Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 7:15 PM
I read and reread “9. How is it that Linden Lab can update its trademark policy? And why can’t Residents be “grandfathered” in under the earlier policies?”
This is so fuzzy and doesnt point out what is breaking rules and whats not. PLEASE SPEAK ENGLISH or atleast write it in different languges so people can understand this correctly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
146. 146 sirhc DeSantis Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 7:22 PM
OK that seems clearer. Well in terms of what we are talking anyway (you know who I mean lol)
147. 147 Winter Ventura Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 7:27 PM
I will no longer refer to “Second Life” in my blog posts. That will simply solve all issues. If we all do this, then “the videogame maintained by the company in San Francisco” will begin to lose search relevance.
Personally, I like that we can comply with their trademark rules, by simply adding 2 words.
I can think of two words right now.
148. 148 Tiny Mind Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 7:46 PM
With all these Grid-performance ‘issues’ of late, I think the NEW name will soon one day be: “The Game formerly-known as Second Life.”
Tiny it up!
149. 149 uh-oh Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 8:11 PM
“So, why exactly does even a prim genital in a mature classified ad have to be hidden from the public eye? Perhaps because the adult grid has been turned into a place where everyone (and all ages) can sign up pretty much anonymously and without an age check? Well, iIt’s either Disneyland online or the SL adult grid, you can’t host both on the same servers. Unless you hurry up with the long planned, long overdue and almost forgotten age verification. Any news on that?”
The new TOS update said that they know underage kids are out here and you have to agree to that before you logged in. Now if you get caught cybering with a underage kid you cannot claim it is an adult site in court. Or if you beat up some kid in RP then it’s some kind of assault on a minor? kind of messed up if you ask me.
They are even raising the build limit to 4000 meters. yet the the IDV ban lines only go up 50m. To top it off they claim they are only a service and not responsible for residents material. the only way to stay out of legal trouble is to act like the whole grid is PG.
At least if LL had age verification at login you can prove the kid lied and stole another persons ID to log in.
I think the IDV is nothing but a PR stunt to cover their own hind ends.
I think this new TOS update really made a mess of things.
150. 150 Carl Metropolitan Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 8:19 PM
Your IP lawyers are giving you poorly thought out advice regarding incorporation of your new trademark policy into the Terms of Service. Especially in regards to recommendations that you attempt to apply the policy to user’s activities outside of Second Life.
What you are being advised to do is of questionable legality (as the SL ToS could easily–again–be found to be a “contract of adhesion), but more importantly is a potential public relations fiasco.
I urge you to reconsider. Or at least talk to some non-IP lawyers.
151. 151 Renee Faulds Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 8:26 PM
3 weeks of BORKED BORKED BORKED Phil.
You promise to bring stability is also BORKED.
I waiting for you to cough up your 2/3rd’s of my monthly land tiers Phil !
152. Cat Cotton says:
The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is an organization dedicated to protecting freedom of speech on the Internet. The Open Net Initiative (ONI) is a collaboration between the Citizen Lab at the Munk Centre for International Studies, University of Toronto, Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Harvard Law School, the Advanced Network Research Group at the Cambridge Security Programme, University of Cambridge, and the Oxford Internet Institute, at Oxford University which aims to investigate, expose, and analyze Internet filtering and surveillance practices in a credible and non-partisan fashion.
Friday, May 9, 2008
Wednesday, May 7, 2008
Second Life (Non) Status
Listing of problems and issues with Second Life
Downtime, teleport, database, event, groups and various service issues.
4/26/08-5/07/08
5/7/08 [PJIRA] Support Portal Temporarily Unavailable
5/7/08 Second Life Downtime Maintenance
5/7/08 Database Issues
5/6/08 Event Posting Unavailable
5/5/08 Database Issues
5/5/08 Second Life Downtime Maintenance 05/07/08
5/5/08 Phone Support Down
5/3/08 700+ Regions Currently Unreachable
5/2/08 Logins and other db-related services slow
5/2/08 Some Webservers Not Showing Current Transaction History
5/1/08 Some regions not coming up or have broken region presence.
5/1/08 New Release Candidate Viewer 1.20 RC5 is available
5/1/08 Second Life In-World Service Issues
5/1/08 PHONES- Partial phone support disruption
4/29/08 Teleports and Region Crossings affected in-world
4/28/08 Rolling Restart planned for Wed April 30/Thu May 1
4/26/08 Database, asset server issues.
4/26/08 Group Payouts Delayed
4/26/08 Rolling Restart for 1.21 Server Deploy Wed/Thu/Fri
4/26/08 Inworld Issues and Logins
Downtime, teleport, database, event, groups and various service issues.
4/26/08-5/07/08
5/7/08 [PJIRA] Support Portal Temporarily Unavailable
5/7/08 Second Life Downtime Maintenance
5/7/08 Database Issues
5/6/08 Event Posting Unavailable
5/5/08 Database Issues
5/5/08 Second Life Downtime Maintenance 05/07/08
5/5/08 Phone Support Down
5/3/08 700+ Regions Currently Unreachable
5/2/08 Logins and other db-related services slow
5/2/08 Some Webservers Not Showing Current Transaction History
5/1/08 Some regions not coming up or have broken region presence.
5/1/08 New Release Candidate Viewer 1.20 RC5 is available
5/1/08 Second Life In-World Service Issues
5/1/08 PHONES- Partial phone support disruption
4/29/08 Teleports and Region Crossings affected in-world
4/28/08 Rolling Restart planned for Wed April 30/Thu May 1
4/26/08 Database, asset server issues.
4/26/08 Group Payouts Delayed
4/26/08 Rolling Restart for 1.21 Server Deploy Wed/Thu/Fri
4/26/08 Inworld Issues and Logins
Tuesday, May 6, 2008
LL Future Traffic Chat Log
Jeska Linden: First, I'd like to thank you all for coming to the meeting today and for having such thoughtful discussions in the group chat.
[17:00] Jeska Linden: Now then, I'd like to distribute our chat log to the group after the meeting, is anyone not ok with that?
[17:01] Jeska Linden: (usually easier than asking who IS ok ;)
[17:01] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:01] Velouria Infinity: okeys chat proliferation
[17:01] MikeVanMan Dagger: ^^
[17:01] Musique Gable grins
[17:01] Jeska Linden: Excellent!
[17:02] Jeska Linden: Ok, we've got an hour here to brainstorm - gather thoughts and ideas - and I'd like for us to cover three different things today, but don't worry I'll push us along if we get caught up in one thing too long.
[17:02] Jeska Linden: flexes her old-school moderator muscles
[17:02] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:02] Musique Gable nods
[17:02] Martin Magpie: haha nice
[17:02] Jeska Linden: The three things I'd like for us to cover include: Showcase replacing Popular Places in the viewer, parcel metrics, and the future of traffic.
[17:03] Jeska Linden: First, briefly, some background.
[17:03] Jeska Linden: I'm sure you all saw in the initial blog post -
[17:03] Jeska Linden: http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/04/28/second-life-showcase-popular-places-and-the-future-of-traffic/
[17:03] Musique Gable: Yes
[17:03] Tequlia Tapioca: nope but i will
[17:03] Velouria Infinity: yes
[17:03] MikeVanMan Dagger: nods
[17:03] Martin Magpie nods
[17:03] Jeska Linden: We're planning on replacing the Popular Places tab content with content pulled from the Showcase on the Second Life Web site with the next Release Candidate
[17:04] Jeska Linden: Anticipating that this would bring up much conversation around traffic and metrics, we wanted to open the conversation up to the community (hence the group and these meetings).
[17:04] Jeska Linden: Let's start with Popular Places...
[17:04] Musique Gable: Okay.
[17:04] Jeska Linden: I'd like to make sure everyone is aware why we are making this switch over -
[17:05] Jeska Linden: then we can take any questions and move to the meatier issue of metrics and traffic :)
[17:05] Velouria Infinity: traffic gaming being key, correct?
[17:05] Jeska Linden: The Popular Places tab was started a long time ago, when the world of Second Life was much, much smaller in all meanings of the word.
[17:05] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:05] Jeska Linden: Velouria - we can spend some time talking about gaming in a few..
[17:05] Velouria Infinity: kk
[17:06] Jeska Linden: It only lists 20 parcels with the highest "traffic" numbers. t that time it was also tied to a "traffice incentive" where LL paid the people who had the most traffic (which has not been done for some time but used to be my job for awhile ;)
[17:06] Jeska Linden: The Showcase is something a bit different - it's been on the SL Website for the last few months and highlights various inworld locations which have interesting content, activities, or experiences.
[17:06] Musique Gable: My only problem I see with Showcases thus far is I'd hate to see favoritism come into play. How are places shown in Showcases going to be determined?
[17:06] Jeska Linden: The hope is that Showcase will allow quality venues to get listed without having the pressure of keeping traffic high and help allow the depth of experiences in Second Life to come to the surface of Search.
[17:07] Jeska Linden: We also have plans to add a method in the future (we're getting feedback on the proposed design currently), which includes a way for Residents to nominate things for Showcase from inworld.
[17:07] Jeska Linden: I'd like to take a few minutes to get your thoughts and feedback on this and take any suggestions on this change before moving on to the next topic (metrics!).
[17:07] Jeska Linden: Musique - we can start with that
[17:07] Martin Magpie: Is Showcase a done deal or is that still up for discussion?
[17:07] Jeska Linden: Martin - the Showcase switch is pretty much done (I believe the code was checked in today) but we can still make changes to the html
[17:08] Tequlia Tapioca: well its fairer to have residence vote but bots can vote alot
[17:08] Musique Gable: exactly Tequila
[17:08] Jeska Linden: And as the program grows (and is hopefully successful) we may be able to add more Linden staff to do more things with it
[17:08] Destiny Niles: at welcome areas and infohubs there are kioskos that gives landmarks - will those be utillzied also?
[17:08] Carla Chandrayaan: it's a done deal. they're ust deciding how to select featured places or whether/how to allow residents to nimonate places for it
[17:08] Martin Magpie: bots voting is also a worry for me.
[17:08] MikeVanMan Dagger: Good point Destiny
[17:08] Jeska Linden: There is another project underway to rework landmarks, which has had some discussion on the SL Dev list I believe.
[17:08] Velouria Infinity: Showcase may be good for LL and in a limited form for businesses new to SL which see a polished and more interesting venue as to why be here and what risk their brand is taking
[17:09] Jeska Linden: nods
[17:09] Velouria Infinity: but obvously risks for favorits sky very high and we can not
[17:09] Velouria Infinity: hide they are there
[17:09] MikeVanMan Dagger: Hubs can be used MUCH better then what they're used for nowadays, which is more like a drinking cooler for old early dwellers for which said hub rests upon
[17:09] Jeska Linden: I'm also taking suggestions and other feedback back to the Showcase team (the very, very small Showcase Editorial team)
[17:09] Velouria Infinity: is natural
[17:09] Lee Lindman: So showcase will be driven solely by a manual voting process ?
[17:09] Carla Chandrayaan: I don't really anticipate the showcase 'helping' businesses in SL. But doing away with the rigged numbers for popular places might
[17:09] Tequlia Tapioca: :) team of 1
[17:09] Velouria Infinity: suspicion is running very very high about it
[17:09] Ann Otoole: How is this system not going to remain basically what the fashion page is where LL decides who will be a top successful fashion store? I.e.; are you going to get out of the business of favoring certain account or will LL begin taking pay for positiong on the showcase? And how will LL prevent gaming of this? comes right around to the question of exactly how many access accounts are allowed per unique person, per household, per IP address.
[17:10] Velouria Infinity: but also this seems to be open to further gaming
[17:10] Velouria Infinity: from the resi's side
[17:10] Jeska Linden: Currently the Showcase is an editorialized list chosen by several people, but in the future (hopefully sooner rather than later) there will be an easier way to nominate things for th list from inside the viewer.
[17:10] MikeVanMan Dagger: There should be incentives to great locations that continue to reface their store with new products and a fresh look. These are places that could maybe be labeled as ACTIVE, where as within the last 30-45 days this location has been updated and is fresh. Maybe have a color system, green as fresh content, yellow (60-90 days) and red (120+ days), since last updated.
[17:11] Velouria Infinity: jacek Antonelli proposed something about incentivating/de-incentivating rating from resis
[17:11] Velouria Infinity: albeit complicated
[17:11] Tequlia Tapioca: good old days
[17:11] Beithe Mills: resis?
[17:11] Velouria Infinity: residents
[17:11] Jeska Linden: resis/residents? :)
[17:11] Jeska Linden: Torley-ism?
[17:11] Beithe Mills: ah
[17:11] Velouria Infinity: was there such a system in place in the past?
[17:12] Tequlia Tapioca: for us
[17:12] Tequlia Tapioca: avatar rates
[17:12] Ann Otoole: What is to stop one store owner from asking 10,000 customers to go to a competitor and flagging for content abuse while recommending that designer's store for showcase. its impossible and will be gamed.
[17:12] Velouria Infinity: Ann poses the problem we see
[17:12] Beithe Mills: but that would be easily spotted Ann
[17:12] Jeska Linden: Ann - We can speak a bit about the search flagging proposal if you'd like, but I'd rather focus in on the traffic issues for this meeting.
[17:12] sirhc DeSantis: ann all systems will be gamed
[17:13] Original Prim: Impartiality is an issue in Linden selected picks too, as many Lindens are successful business owners themselves.
[17:13] Jeska Linden: We've been speaking with several groups with an early (super early) proposal for search flagging.
[17:13] Darien Caldwell: how many stores have 10,000 customers willing to be dishonest? it's rather a silly notion.
[17:13] Harvey Swenson: why isnt the showcase just a random selection of nominated places? once they're vetted then just display them randomly?
[17:13] Ann Otoole: no it wouldnt. besides, who will police it? LL hasn't the staff for that. And what would LL do? delete the scammer accounts?
[17:13] Beithe Mills: and 10,000 customers without one that would report it......
[17:14] Argos Hawks: it wouldn't take 10,000. may not even take 10.
[17:14] Musique Gable: someone can make 10,000 alts, not impossible....stranger things have happened in SL
[17:14] Jeska Linden: Did anyone else have suggestions on how to improve the Showcase or any other questions on the removal of POpular places?
[17:14] Tequlia Tapioca: its a hard question and why you are here now
[17:14] Martin Magpie: Generally speaking any improvement to the current search is much needed not just for the residents but also for LL. I am glad to hear that the list is checked by more than one person. I still have concerns that a it will become another popularity contest and it's not about what you do; more of who you know.
[17:14] Argos Hawks: Don't include stores in the Showcase.
[17:14] MikeVanMan Dagger: popular places could have tabs at the very least
[17:14] Velouria Infinity: if we remove pop places what incentives bots have still to clog those high places?
[17:14] Musique Gable: I say put Popular Places in the residents hads.....as we ARE what make SL, SL
[17:14] Tequlia Tapioca: bots and abuses are hard to deal with
[17:15] Tim Gagliano: Can I ask a question of a Linden?
[17:15] Ann Otoole: ratings were gamed. ratings were removed. nobody got hurt. SL doesnt need voting for popularity systems. i agree reporting content clearly in violation of the CS/TOS is needed and there is an AR system now although it may need governance over the governance team
[17:15] Velouria Infinity: then ban bots in the TOS
[17:15] Dirk Talamasca: New residents are not allowed to place a vote
[17:15] Original Prim: Resident nomination does sound promising and I'm confident you can find ways to lessen gaming
[17:15] Shanti Sands: anything with resident voting to me is asking for *easy* bot abuse
[17:15] Jeska Linden: Martin - I understand the concern, my hope is that once we have search flagging in and nominations start rolling in, we can use that data within the Showcase
[17:15] Beithe Mills: What about violent/adult locations, would LL even consider showcasing those.........i do not run one, but content can be an issue on something like the showcase can it not?
[17:15] Tequlia Tapioca: bots are ages old
[17:15] Jeska Linden: Possibly like Digg or Craiglist does
[17:15] Carla Chandrayaan: I agree that it should be a rnadom pick. Unbiased (except possibly against overtly mature themes) of all sim or businesses or adventurous places i Sl
[17:15] Musique Gable: The thing is, there is nothing stopping bots/alts from entering SL...that therein lies the problem
[17:15] Tequlia Tapioca: only paying members gets votes is not right either
[17:16] Velouria Infinity: some even suggest a thirdy party to deliver reviews
[17:16] MikeVanMan Dagger: bots are defnitly a drain on resources, I logged on this monday morning, 56k residents online...where are these people? My friends and I have scoured everywhere.....the answer lies 85 bots jammed in a sky box
[17:16] Tequlia Tapioca: unless all are paying
[17:16] Tim Gagliano: Why do this instead of Enforcing the TOS.... If we Enforced the TOS, Traffic could stay... or.. have a filter to remove the bots/campers... to show REAL traffic
[17:16] Beithe Mills: We arent talking about traffic Yet, A/all
[17:16] sirhc DeSantis: with tim
[17:16] Velouria Infinity: So I ask, why are bots not a TOS volation or taxed financially with a separate bot account?
[17:16] Musique Gable: I'd be game for that, Tim. When I joined SL, I had to verify my account. I know its unpopular, but would stop all these bots/alts draining SL and gaming areas
[17:16] Argos Hawks: unless you tie the votes to a specific identity, all systems that involve voting are no better than the current traffic system.
[17:16] Darien Caldwell: but I think Traffic is what everyone wants to talk about. :)
[17:16] Jeska Linden: Ok, I've got some good thoughts to take back to the Showcase team, let's talk for a minute about metrics
[17:16] Jeska Linden: :)
[17:16] MikeVanMan Dagger: yes
[17:17] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:17] Harvey Swenson: I'd still prefer the shocase to be random rather than a list edited by the lindens
[17:17] Martin Magpie: Other than the obvious flagging as you mentioned how would that be any different than the old green box voting system?
[17:17] Jeska Linden: Currently the only Linden provided metric for your parcel/estate is traffic.
[17:17] Tim Gagliano: ?
[17:17] Beithe Mills: Valid questions were drained out by the crowd
[17:17] MikeVanMan Dagger: metrics/visitors on one parcel should be determined to how much in one sim you own
[17:17] Musique Gable: Jeska, just let them know not to alienate the SL populance with Showcasing...don't take it out of our hands
[17:17] MikeVanMan Dagger: obviously if you own an isle(s), you're in control of that 100%
[17:17] Jeska Linden: Martin - we have actual editorial staff dedicated to it now and more resources to maintain it (not to mention easily update it with html int he viewer)
[17:18] Velouria Infinity: I am confident that LL can EditoriLI
[17:18] Jeska Linden: Traffic is calculated using a complex algorithm and is based on the amount of Residents who visited, and the time spent on that parcel out of their total time inworld that day.
[17:18] sirhc DeSantis: well i only have a little place but i still want to know if its worth keeping
[17:18] Jeska Linden: Let's spend a few minutes brainstorming what other types of things you'd like to know about people who visit your parcel/region.
[17:18] Tequlia Tapioca grins at complex
[17:18] Martin Magpie: I'm familair with meta data.
[17:18] Dirk Talamasca: Should a resident or group or residents work to skew the metrics, what would be the severity of punishment if any?
[17:18] Ann Otoole: if the discussion is now traffic then i would love an answer to the direct question of how many accounts per person are allowed, how many per household, and how many per IP address, and is IP spoofing allowed, and if not then how can LL enforce the rules? If the rules we have observed on the website as to 5 accounts were enforced then why do we see one parcel owner clearly running 50 bots in a box as it is?
[17:18] Jeska Linden: Remember that this could also be tied into advertising campaigns (classifieds/etc) in the future..
[17:18] Velouria Infinity: sorry... LL can editorialize well and polished but until we answer the bot question we won't go far
[17:18] Argos Hawks: Any list of Linden approved stores is always going to be subject to accusations of cronyism, regardless of how well it's done.
[17:18] Tequlia Tapioca: i run neural
[17:18] Darien Caldwell: Id like to know how people found my parcel, by landmark, classifed, places or other method.
[17:18] MikeVanMan Dagger: It is not right for a new resident or one that only wants a small parcel to be forced out of where they are living because a new mall or club feels they have the right to jam them out with bots, campers
[17:19] Musique Gable: I agree Argos...it already leaves a bad taste in my mouth
[17:19] Velouria Infinity: we're stuck with wondering if bots are or not a TOS violation
[17:19] Darien Caldwell: Id also like to know what keywords are most associated with my parcel
[17:19] Musique Gable: that would be helpful, Darien
[17:19] Lee Lindman: I'd like to see Alexa-ish data about my parcel visitors
[17:19] Destiny Niles agrees with Darien
[17:19] Musique Gable: what keywords draw people to your sim
[17:19] sirhc DeSantis: i'd like to know if they come back
[17:19] Original Prim: Kinda like what Ann said, if traffic calculations took unique IP address into account too, do you think it could reduce bot abuse?
[17:19] Lee Lindman: country they came from, the viewer versions
[17:19] Martin Magpie: I do have to say ty for removing popular places if that was the best SL had to offer it wasn't much.
[17:19] Argos Hawks: Jeska, you just mentioned it could be tied to advertising campaigns. Are you suggesting that people buy their way into the Linden approved list?
[17:19] Velouria Infinity: so maybe jeska can give us hints on how to penalize bots?
[17:19] Musique Gable: That what it sounds like
[17:20] Tequlia Tapioca: Bots have some useful purpose to somebody that matters
[17:20] Carla Chandrayaan: Flagging IP adresses would do nothing since anyone can change their IP at any time
[17:20] Shanti Sands: Id like to know main searchterms used to find me on top of Dariens list
[17:20] Tequlia Tapioca: linden maybe themselves
[17:20] Beithe Mills: 1: source they came in by, 2: if they immediatelly tped back out again or moved from the landing 3: age of AV
[17:20] Jeska Linden: Bots aren't currently against the Terms of Service
[17:20] Carla Chandrayaan: but a code written to the hard drive of someone siging up would do it.
[17:20] Velouria Infinity: then bots will stay, just traffic can go down the drain? I do not understand
[17:20] Tim Gagliano: how so?
[17:20] Ann Otoole: i think if the top abusing people clearly running more than the 5 accounts allowed were deleted from sl the rest of the bot runners would stop.
[17:20] Tequlia Tapioca: right but most residence feel they should be
[17:20] Tequlia Tapioca: i have 6
[17:20] Darien Caldwell: The only way to stop the abuse of bots is to make their use less attractive.
[17:20] Tim Gagliano: Arent bots listed as Illegal Alt Accounts?
[17:20] Tequlia Tapioca: i am not an abuser
[17:20] Darien Caldwell: if they give no benefit, people won't use them
[17:21] Velouria Infinity: let's give jeska more room on this.................
[17:21] Jeska Linden: Yeah sorry, I got lost in all the questions there...
[17:21] Dirk Talamasca: I think that is a good odea, Lee... Jeska, information about parcels should be returned to residents in a format that is easily understood and not in cryptic jargon that would require them to track Meta down at office hours.
[17:21] Musique Gable: Why even allow them in the gate to begin with though? They're just nipples it in the bud and you won't have the abuse problems
[17:21] Shanti Sands: the longer you are in world the more oppoortunity to try new things = more alts ( no need for 25 mind you)
[17:21] Tequlia Tapioca: sorry Jeska
[17:21] Musique Gable: damn triggers
[17:21] sirhc DeSantis: if i thought camping/bots would work - but if traffic is gone..
[17:21] Jeska Linden: Let's back up a bit and finish pulling info on what metrics you'd like on your parcel
[17:21] Argos Hawks: are we still talking about showcase, or did it switch?
[17:21] Ann Otoole: i'd just like a yes or no on the 5 accounts allowed or is it really unlimited accounts.
[17:21] MikeVanMan Dagger: There is a few gadgets I've seen, even code I've looked at too to see how it was implemented, where you can plant an antena, and artifically implant 10-99 bots, and with the pull of that one antenna disable all of the bots or any number of them in one key stroke
[17:21] Original Prim: There are legitimate uses of IP cloning, such as universities (vip!), but perhaps organizations who are planning to log in multiple accounts from the same IP could be asked to apply for a special exemption?
[17:21] Jeska Linden: I understand that bots are a topic of concern within the community.
[17:21] Martin Magpie: I did a quick search the other day for residental rentals, i was pointed to a store with over 50k traffic. I clicked on the map 0 avatars. Bots.
[17:21] Musique Gable: As you can see, Jeska. Showcase is a concern for a lot of us....
[17:22] Tequlia Tapioca: well they interfear with all you try to do
[17:22] Darien Caldwell: to repeat what I said earlier, Id like to know how people found my parcel, by landmark, classifed, places or other method. as well Id also like to know what keywords are most associated with my parcel.
[17:22] Jeska Linden: Ann - I believe the Terms of Service say "You may register multiple accounts per identification method only at Linden Lab's sole discretion." it is not limited per the TOS. Historically on the website, we've limited to 5 per "human"
[17:22] Musique Gable seconds Darien
[17:22] Shanti Sands agrees with Darien
[17:22] Jeska Linden: But I'm no laywer ;)
[17:22] Tim Gagliano: Ok
[17:22] Tim Gagliano: but
[17:22] MikeVanMan Dagger: maybe two accounts per credit card is the answer
[17:22] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:22] Tim Gagliano: why go with showcase
[17:22] Dirk Talamasca: Time of Day, Origin of Visitor, Time Spent on Parcel, How the Resident fond the parcel (if known) profile, classified, SLURL etc
[17:23] Velouria Infinity: why not charging bot accounts heavily? if they are declared HUMAN then they are in violation
[17:23] Ann Otoole: ok so unlimited accounts are allowed. we can run 100 bots if we want. (useless as it may be). bots are golden.
[17:23] Darien Caldwell: yes, good ones Dirk
[17:23] Velouria Infinity: are they?
[17:23] sirhc DeSantis: metrics Jeska - an accessible rating to say visitors enjoyed them selves
[17:23] Elizabeth Durnan: So bots are ok, because it makes the current users online look pretty spiffy.
[17:23] Jeska Linden: Thanks Darien
[17:23] Tequlia Tapioca: but that does not work if you allow no payment right?
[17:23] Lee Lindman: we need google analytics for Second Life
[17:23] Beithe Mills: Y'all are stpepping away from the question.......
[17:23] Tim Gagliano: instead of TOS enforcement? and actually ban bots... You cannot tell me that having 90 bots over a club is for anything other then POP list gaming...
[17:23] Musique Gable: The problem we all seem to have its bots...it strains LL resources and is gaming the system. Lets get rid of the bots
[17:23] Velouria Infinity: I believe you should declare a bot account and be taxed heavily for it or incur in banning
[17:24] Destiny Niles: can we get off bots. they been around as long as SL™ and will be around
[17:24] Martin Magpie nods at Tim
[17:24] Lee Lindman: Destiny - agreed
[17:24] Tequlia Tapioca: well they activate their bot script logging but they would write a new script
[17:24] sirhc DeSantis: a universal across the board rating system
[17:24] Jeska Linden: Ok, I've heard a lot of people asking for unique, which is the industry standard for web metrics...
[17:24] Ann Otoole: ok so now the issue of traffic abuse to raise relevance. since unlimited accounts are allowed then traffic needs to be decoupled from anything that raises relevance at all since traffic is a totally bogus number. because bots are allowed. fine with me. decouple traffic from anything other than the parcel traffic mesure. problem solved.
[17:25] Argos Hawks: If we only count traffic from accounts tied to an actual human identity (PIOF), and only count one avatar per human at any time, bot running for traffic purposes dies.
[17:25] Musique Gable: that's not a bad idea, Argos
[17:25] MikeVanMan Dagger: I have a few alt accounts I use for scripting/building....and if and when I log them on in my store it's for modeling my gadgets, a new gun, etc, and this I feel is good use of "botting", and I could care less about traffic with popular places and all
[17:25] Jeska Linden: Unique?
[17:25] Carla Chandrayaan: Jeska, just a thought, but I'd sure like to see folks have the ability to 'connect' conneted sims that they won and make all their info one and the ame
[17:25] Jeska Linden: Repeat?
[17:25] Carla Chandrayaan: same*
[17:25] Musique Gable: I agree with Carla on that as well
[17:25] Orion Shamroy: Unique does seem logical. Rather than some voodoo hocus pocus algorithm that accounts for too many things and winds up giving us some mysterious number that has no comprehendable meaning...
[17:25] Jeska Linden: I'm not sure what you mean Carla, explain?
[17:26] Carla Chandrayaan: err own not won... lol I paid through the nose for mine lol
[17:26] Musique Gable: if you own two sims, they have two different traffics
[17:26] Velouria Infinity: guys, we need to moderate ourselves or we are not going anywere, theres like a ton of meat on the fire here
[17:26] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:26] Musique Gable: even though they are connected
[17:26] Jeska Linden: Ok, so you'd like comprehensive metrics or a way to compile metrics for all of your land?
[17:26] Martin Magpie: That makes a lot of sence Carla, less info for the servers to process as well.
[17:26] Velouria Infinity: I see some rosting burgers even :)
[17:26] Beithe Mills: She wants to have people be able to connect all parcels they own as one, under one search entry
[17:26] Velouria Infinity is pausing
[17:26] Destiny Niles: Yes, multisim metrics
[17:26] Carla Chandrayaan: jeska, folks who own multiple sims, if given the ability to make them all count as 'one' with regard to whatever information IS available on them... I just thinkn it would work well
[17:26] Shanti Sands: Basically instead of joining parcels, joining sims under one.
[17:26] sirhc DeSantis: individual - i have different parcels
[17:27] Tequlia Tapioca: oh good idea
[17:27] Carla Chandrayaan: I'm talking about connected sims like mine
[17:27] Dirk Talamasca: I am not really sure that unique has much application here as you can often return to a parcel with friends, or visit several times a day because the parcel has several different events going on in the same day.. If your parcel provides content that persuades visitors to return, you should receive credit for that.
[17:27] Jeska Linden: I believe estates allow that - you can have shared traits on an estate basis
[17:27] sirhc DeSantis: like a meta sim
[17:27] Jeska Linden: So offer metrics on an estate basis as well as region and parcel?
[17:27] Tequlia Tapioca: not rank or traffic
[17:27] Jeska Linden: I'm still talking about metrics :)
[17:27] Destiny Niles: yes Jeska
[17:27] Carla Chandrayaan: From one sim to another? Or just one parcel intersim to another same sim parcel?
[17:27] sirhc DeSantis: well Jeska - lets see what works
[17:27] Darien Caldwell: I don't know that I would want to have traffic combined across multiple sims, different paracels are for different uses, and I'd like to evaluate them based on their own merits. :)
[17:28] Tim Gagliano: Jeska... why go with showcase when all you have to do is ban bots.... make it apart of the TOS like it should be... and as for camping... have a flag setup so that honest SIM owners can be once again apart of the top 20
[17:28] Lee Lindman: Start with parcel metrics, but then offer a way to group all your owned parcels together for a summary of metrics
[17:28] Ann Otoole: lets keep in mind bots are allowed. as many as desired. So now we need to find a we to remove them from relavance. filtering out NIOF may sound good but theres a lot of NPIOFs that are unhappy about their picks not being counted in support of their favorite locations. so to have a voice in sl must we move to payment info on file or used? or just make the jump to premium accounts are the only ones counted?
[17:28] Jeska Linden: Darien - doesn't have to be traffic, I'm thinking more of way to break out metrics for various things - like unique visitors or repeat visitors, etc
[17:28] Musique Gable: I agree, Tim
[17:28] Argos Hawks: We're trying to get away from people gaming traffic. Combining traffic from several sims to be used for a store on one of them would be crazy.
[17:28] Martin Magpie: Jeska why does traffic have to be tied to seach?
[17:28] Darien Caldwell: as long as you can get on a per parcel basis as well
[17:29] Musique Gable: I have to admit as a shopper, I use PlACES in search more than I do classified
[17:29] sirhc DeSantis: Jeska - that would be a step forward
[17:29] Dirk Talamasca: I agree Darien.. That doesn't make much sense. You may as well just count on your own vendors to provide numbers that show whether that parcel is generating sales
[17:29] Carla Chandrayaan: Traffic needs to be tied to search right now. Otherwise, the only thing left is who is willing to pay the most for classifieds
[17:29] Jeska Linden: Martin - I'm not sure it does, but that is kind of the next topic...
[17:29] Tequlia Tapioca: traffics only a small part from what i can gather
[17:29] Musique Gable: I agree, Carla
[17:29] Ann Otoole: tying relevance to an estate will effectively favor anshe chung and the other 2 major land barons. not going to fly.
[17:29] Carla Chandrayaan: And while that may be good for LL, it's not good for residents
[17:29] Jeska Linden: Are there any other metrics that people would like to see on their land?
[17:29] Beithe Mills: What else would search be based on........for those selling hair, who should be listed first if traffic is not used?
[17:29] Martin Magpie: ty :)
[17:29] Tequlia Tapioca: other then places
[17:29] MikeVanMan Dagger: It would benefit LL more in RL $$ with higher dollar classifieds, what do you as a business structure get out of artificially inflated traffic numbers other then big world commerse which has brought more heartache then anything to SL/
[17:29] Tim Gagliano: hmmmm
[17:30] sirhc DeSantis: yes - a universal rating survey
[17:30] Tim Gagliano: well at least someone is not here to shout me down
[17:30] Dirk Talamasca: Age Range and Sex would be nice
[17:30] Jeska Linden: Beithe - that is what we are trying to figure out.
[17:30] Original Prim: I do think it's useful to know how people found your parcel, whether from places search, classifieds, profile pick, slurl from a website, etc
[17:30] Musique Gable: most people lie about that Dirk...what does that matter?
[17:30] Shanti Sands: Information i would like to see as a business tool and things I would like to see used as a menthod for rating search rank are two different things to me
[17:30] Harvey Swenson: click thru's same as every other search engine
[17:30] Argos Hawks: For the About Land window, I'd like to see unique visitors in addition to traffic, but it would be disasterous to rank search by unique visitors. That's easier to game than traffic.
[17:31] Carla Chandrayaan: classifieds already give you results information
[17:31] Ann Otoole: question jeska. you seem to be defecting any conversation about abuse. so is this just a request for additional metric ideas and there will be no consideration of the blatant abuse and falsification going on?
[17:31] Martin Magpie: Dirk I have issues with anyone giving out my personal information. age and sex. that isn't anyones business in sl unless i tell them.
[17:31] Lee Lindman: it'd be nice to have something like a 'bounce' metric. How many people teleported onto your sim and immediately left
[17:31] Dirk Talamasca: Indeed it is Argos
[17:31] Beithe Mills: Yes, sorry was asking that in response to a few calls for disconnecting search and traffic totally
[17:31] Carla Chandrayaan: they tell you how may TP's are made, how many profile views, etc
[17:31] Lee Lindman: or left within a given time range, like 5 seconds
[17:31] Musique Gable: I agree, I don't want to get into sex, age, etc...people aren't truthful about that do begin with
[17:31] Musique Gable: and who cares
[17:31] Original Prim: Lee, that might have to take crashing into account, as that often happens following teleport
[17:31] Destiny Niles: metrics over time would be nice also instead of yesterdays visits
[17:31] Tequlia Tapioca: same sort shows on an ad?
[17:31] Martin Magpie: (or they look at my profile lol)
[17:31] Jeska Linden: Ann - at this point in the design (early) I'm trying to find out what the community wants so we can mock up a proposed design
[17:32] Martin Magpie: but i hope you see my point.
[17:32] Beithe Mills: Ann, that was the third part of the planned talk, relax, hehe
[17:32] MikeVanMan Dagger: right who cares about RL demographics unless you're using SL as a lead generation tool for your RL business
[17:32] Tequlia Tapioca: but with unique visits
[17:32] Lee Lindman: we can report on crashes no?
[17:32] Shanti Sands: ok SL demographics :D
[17:32] Tequlia Tapioca: still does not stop bots but better
[17:32] Velouria Infinity: Tim, we are not carpet-bombing you, I hope they won't carpet bomb me lol.... Jeska what is possible to do technically to reduce impact of bots and what is LL willing to do to restrict the influence of bots on any metric system that you are going to implement? I feel if we pin down the right position towards bots we speed up towards better ways to metric....
[17:32] sirhc DeSantis: can we?
[17:32] Lee Lindman: I'm pretty sure I've seen statistics from LL on crash rates
[17:32] Tim Gagliano: JESKA... ban bots... and put in a flag for camping.. that is what I want :)
[17:32] Musique Gable: I agree, Vel
[17:32] Tequlia Tapioca: they have them :)
[17:33] sirhc DeSantis: with tim
[17:33] Darien Caldwell: Bots can't be banned. but they can be made irrelevant.
[17:33] MikeVanMan Dagger: campers=red, bad, false traffic
[17:33] Jeska Linden: nods
[17:33] Tim Gagliano: leave traffic as it is...
[17:33] Martin Magpie: well said Vel
[17:33] Tim Gagliano: but ban the bots
[17:33] sirhc DeSantis: ok - tell me how many camper spots in a parcel
[17:33] Argos Hawks: If you only count traffic from PIOF accounts, and only one count one avatar per person, traffic bots go away immediately.
[17:33] Tequlia Tapioca: well i say levels of camps. 5 or less 10 or more sort if you do
[17:33] Tim Gagliano: make it a TOS infraction
[17:33] Jeska Linden: Darien is right, it is practically impossible to prevent bots, nor are all bots "evil" (some are kind of cool)
[17:33] Shanti Sands: bah LL just needs to publish a clear cut and definitive standard for the use of bots and differntiate them from legitamite accounts. They are different. Clear this subject and we can move on to better things.
[17:33] MikeVanMan Dagger: camper spots should be based on how much land you own in the sim
[17:33] Tequlia Tapioca: some of us do it for other then traffic reasons
[17:33] Tim Gagliano: ok
[17:33] Shanti Sands: * legit alt accounts i meant
[17:33] Velouria Infinity: have them pay for a dedicated bot account, heavy fees, while making traffic less permeable to them is a compromise I would accept
[17:33] Musique Gable: there is a difference between BOTS and ALTS
[17:33] MikeVanMan Dagger: but to a degree if you dont own 100% obviosly
[17:34] Argos Hawks: No it isn't. You can prevent traffic bots by only counting one avatar per verifed human
[17:34] Ann Otoole: then why not just log the data and let parcel owners query it. we can get everything we need. visitors by payment status, repeat visitors, duration per visit, total visit time and all by day, week, month, etc. raw data is more valuable than just some made up formula numbers. dump the visit data to a seperate data warehouse and allow parcel owners to queery it via the web.
[17:34] Shanti Sands agrees with Musique
[17:34] sirhc DeSantis: teq - thats fine. just tell me
[17:34] Tim Gagliano: when you have 90 above a club for 10 days.... and you club cannot hold more then 20 people.. that is a problem
[17:34] Velouria Infinity: thats something LL can also do, Ann
[17:34] Jeska Linden: But I agree with Shanti, I think it's clear that we're not keen on Bots and should work to either allow people to identify them within their metrics or make clearer guidelines on their usage. I'll take that back to the search team.
[17:34] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:34] Velouria Infinity: dump traffic on known bot users
[17:34] Shanti Sands: Yes those are bots, not alts. Usage factors in to what is and isn't a bot.
[17:34] Ann Otoole: would be less of a load than making up more encoded formulas
[17:34] Martin Magpie: bots are kewl till they take down the grid. sorry but that is a reality.
[17:35] Original Prim: Bots could register themselves with the server and have "bot" branded on their profile and elsewhere
[17:35] Dirk Talamasca: Less Load = Good
[17:35] Argos Hawks: shanti, any usage that you believe indicates a person can be faked by a bot
[17:35] Tequlia Tapioca: i like to help new real players a bit. i have 3 camps but bots are horrid. used to be fun
[17:35] Velouria Infinity: what is the impact of bots on usage if that is available data?
[17:35] sirhc DeSantis: good question
[17:35] Shanti Sands: I have two alts that have their own businesses that just don't mesh with mine, plus help with land management functions. Blanketing alts as bots is not always accurate
[17:35] Jeska Linden: So I've got a slew of different metrics that you have all suggested would be helpful in determining how your parcel is doing
[17:35] Jeska Linden: (above and beyond today's "traffic")
[17:35] MikeVanMan Dagger: Bots are crap, if you run a sim of bots you have no honor and are not what newcomers in SL should be falsified in beleiving is what SL has to offer, it's cr*p!
[17:35] Ann Otoole: bots can look like anything and if the abuse situation is not solved you can expect the problem to increase at a log rate as everyone joins the bots-in-a-box arms race
[17:36] sirhc DeSantis: ann thats a bit strong
[17:36] Musique Gable: It's not traffic that is broken and/or the amount of popular places, its the amount of bots allowed in SL
[17:36] Melissa Venera accepted your inventory offer.
[17:36] Martin Magpie: I see her point.
[17:36] Beithe Mills: Agree with that one Ann.......we have 14 just to keep us afloat.....
[17:36] Velouria Infinity: there's also the fact that experinced users make up their opinon on parcels/islands using bots, that's valuable and we all can judge as we do everyday
[17:36] Tequlia Tapioca: yes
[17:36] Tequlia Tapioca: good idea
[17:36] Argos Hawks: Ann is right, but if you limit traffic to a single PIOF account per person, the problem is solved
[17:37] Jeska Linden: So stepping back into brainstorming land for a minute...
[17:37] MikeVanMan Dagger: if you (LL) were to say 10 days free trail accounts are on again and for any bots you want to keep to aditional members, pay $1.00 extra per month even, think of the possibilities on your end and the slews of dead accounts that would pop up....I say go with that
[17:37] Jeska Linden: We talked a bit about what types of metrics would help you understand more of what is happening on your individual parcels.
[17:37] Lee Lindman: Argos - I like your idea
[17:37] Aliester Enoch: Argos - how will you tell?
[17:37] Argos Hawks: you can't get a PIOF account without giving up your CC info. that includes a name and address
[17:38] Tequlia Tapioca: well is there metrics i can look at over the last 24 hours that shows my technical performance
[17:38] Martin Magpie: I could see how a bot could be useful to answer questions and such. But is that really in LL best interest for me to have a free account and use a bot to do business? I don't think that would do my business much good; no personal touch. As far as not good for LL " I walked around all day, shopping and looking at kewl places; unfortunatly I couldn't find one real person to talk to" Don't think it can't happen.
[17:38] Argos Hawks: you can't fake it without committing real life fraus
[17:38] sirhc DeSantis: Jeska - metrics generated by visitors
[17:38] Argos Hawks: fraud
[17:38] Jeska Linden: Which of those metrics, if any, would you want to view publically?
[17:38] Original Prim: Bots are very small programs which only utilize a small part of the protocol, they'd find it very difficult to respond to any verification of visual data because they typically disgard it all.
[17:38] Aliester Enoch: Argos - and people will
[17:38] Darien Caldwell: yes Martin. Bots aren't as desirable as real people :)
[17:38] sirhc DeSantis: all of them
[17:38] Tequlia Tapioca: spikes and highest usage scripts
[17:38] Jeska Linden: and/or be used to help with search relevance (as traffic does with the places tab currently)
[17:38] Tequlia Tapioca: at the time
[17:38] Musique Gable: I don't know if I would want any of them viewed publicly
[17:38] Argos Hawks: then those people can be reported to the RL authorities
[17:39] Tequlia Tapioca: who was wearing it
[17:39] Tim Gagliano: Jeska
[17:39] Tim Gagliano: How about TPs in?
[17:39] sirhc DeSantis: gather the data first then mine it to see what works
[17:39] Beithe Mills: i would not have a problem if all the metrics were public
[17:39] Musique Gable: for my own personal use...if they see the keyword PLANT works for SIM A.....and then they start using it
[17:39] Velouria Infinity: jeska, only traffic data that makes sense to business is PUBLIC data and resident's generated data is inevitably mangled or subjected to gaming
[17:39] Musique Gable: that opens a whole can of worms
[17:39] Shanti Sands: publically as in to the general public - or to the landholders
[17:39] Shanti Sands: ?
[17:39] Musique Gable: I'd want it for my personal use, not public consumption
[17:39] MikeVanMan Dagger: RL authorites? That's a bit extreme, and which county form of execution of the law should we use, USA? as is always the law over everyones SL experience?
[17:39] Jeska Linden: Currently traffic is a publically used metric to help determine relevance
[17:39] Darien Caldwell: as long as the metrics aren't associated with any individual Avatar, I see no problem with any of them being public.
[17:39] sirhc DeSantis: kk so - split between profit/np locations
[17:40] Velouria Infinity: we need sorta what we have, the whole economy is tied to clean (if gamed) public data
[17:40] Tim Gagliano: ok
[17:40] Jeska Linden: It's also the only number provided to you from Linden Lab about how your business is doing.
[17:40] Tequlia Tapioca: bad for relevence really here
[17:40] Ann Otoole: anyone makes a bot that randomly travels the grid buying stuff at random is a hero. otherwise bots add very little to SL until we can develop serious NPCs. and i'm hoping the future of scripting helps. so all bots are not evil. well unless programmed as an evil NPC anyway.
[17:40] Tim Gagliano: Yes.. but what if we added Teleports in to a parcel/sim?
[17:40] sirhc DeSantis: that b word again
[17:40] Velouria Infinity: thst is why I am not for suppression of traffic, that's a bad move if ever will be implemented
[17:40] Argos Hawks: the authorities that cover the place where the fraud was committed. credit card fraud is a serious RL crime. I doubt many will commit RL fraud to get a few extra traffic points.
[17:41] Martin Magpie: I don't want to see an end of traffic, I would however like to see it removed as a part of search.
[17:41] Jeska Linden: Velouria / Martin - can you both explain your views?
[17:41] Aliester Enoch: I think traffic should stay as it is and in search
[17:41] Velouria Infinity: most of our clients are in stand-by mode on this very topic
[17:41] Shanti Sands: that is a weak way to know how your business is doing , traffic alone - i would be interested in seeing traffic as a land management figure amongst other data such as keywords utilized, whether they got there from search or LM - whether it was a return visit etc.
[17:41] Jeska Linden: I'm curious to hear more about them, since they seem simiilar and yet very different.
[17:41] Musique Gable: I disagree with that...Martin sorry. Again, I use PLACES in search more than I do classifieds
[17:42] sirhc DeSantis: how about word of mouth?
[17:42] Musique Gable: The good places are going to get good traffic regardless of bots...and you can tell once you land on the sim
[17:42] Velouria Infinity: PLACES is the engine of this economy and a generator of transactions, i agree totally
[17:42] Dirk Talamasca: word of mouth is good if you happen to speak the same language but SL is a global community
[17:42] Orion Shamroy: If a number is needed for search ranking, why not two figures? A total number of _unique_ visits per month and an average of monthly totals?
[17:42] Darien Caldwell: only because Places is the only 'free' classified.
[17:42] sirhc DeSantis: mais oui
[17:43] Velouria Infinity: WOM does not work in a place this big Dirk, realize it please
[17:43] Velouria Infinity: that's a boutique economy
[17:43] Blue67 Fairlane: i agree with orion
[17:43] Martin Magpie: Traffic is gamed always has been, I don't think its in anyones best interest to see XXX on the top of the search pile even when looking for "a puppy". When you have traffic as part of search your search then becomes a fight to be #1. If it was removed then ppl would have the oppertunity to find what they are looking for. Instead of every store using key words to get traffic falsely.
[17:43] Argos Hawks: unique visits is easier to game than traffic and harder on the servers as people keep cycling their bots through the TPs
[17:43] Jeska Linden: Orion/ Blue - tell us more?
[17:43] Musique Gable: You have some sims who cater to a newbie...for example. I offer freebies to lure in new people and hopefully people who come back to visit
[17:43] Aliester Enoch: traffic isn't the problem its the keywords, anyone can put anything in, like Martin said
[17:44] Darien Caldwell: Orion, i don't see how that would be any different than what we have now.
[17:44] Velouria Infinity: in the group we proposed tag limitation
[17:44] Blue67 Fairlane: why use just one figure, use several and possibly average them?
[17:44] Aliester Enoch: search will never be relevant as long as anyone can just make up anything to show up for
[17:44] sirhc DeSantis: so categories - defined ones?
[17:44] Jeska Linden: Aliester - Agree, there should be less keywords to allow for better bidding
[17:44] Beithe Mills: There is a lot of false keywords in some areas, that is not as bad as the traffic issue for us.......the keywords tend to backfire, places that do that a lot get customers mad
[17:44] Velouria Infinity: Aliester SEACH is relevant
[17:44] Aliester Enoch: Yes!
[17:44] Martin Magpie: Also I am sure that X rated is not the very first thing you want the ppl to think SL is when they log in for the first time.
[17:44] Argos Hawks: any search where we are talking about keywords and tags is not the search we came here to talk about
[17:44] Musique Gable: I don't think there is enough keywords as it is...to desribe my sim
[17:44] Aliester Enoch: Velouria - which search are you using?
[17:44] Original Prim: I rely on traffic figures when searching. If I'm looking for a particular type of store, high traffic usually equates with better quality products. It's virtually unheard of for a store with quality products to have no traffic. This isn't always true for non-commercial locations, however.
[17:44] Orion Shamroy: Well, mainly model the whole thing after a web counter. Simple and easy. What we have now is some sort of jumbled magic number kind of system. There are just too many factors to even know whats being counted.
[17:45] Musique Gable: I agree Original
[17:45] MikeVanMan Dagger: Sadly too Jeska, with the announcement of daily traffic or popular places coming to an end, both will bring a major dive in mainland prices, which could and would be bad business for LL........we need to invent something other for people to do in sl other then camop, shop and have sex.....need more carnivals, more art shows, more ways of showing what SL really should be, heck even more palces for people to fire up their guns(yes orbit still exists you didnt break them all), and those places should be abuse report free, if you're there, fire at will, (getting off course there..sorry), but you really need to go back to some of the old ways of SL indeed
[17:45] Harvey Swenson: keywords is already limited by description and parcel size though jeska, it can only be gamed so far, including puppy as a box title and having 50k in traffic is what pushes it to the top
[17:45] Velouria Infinity: customers rely on PLACES, not ALL, to effectively shop and it is effective, want to put in on a POOL?
[17:45] Beithe Mills: Oh, and fix the dance/dancer/dancing problem....where each search list is totally different, hehehe
[17:45] Aliester Enoch: I agree with Original also
[17:45] Darien Caldwell: Thats kind of the original Intent, Orion, to make it so you don't know what's being counted, to keep from gaming it.
[17:45] Darien Caldwell: however it's failed now :)
[17:45] Musique Gable: I noticed the showcases only had clothes shopping, corporate sims. There is no category for my sim ...I sell furniture
[17:46] sirhc DeSantis: darien has a point
[17:46] Martin Magpie: I would suggest a search in alphabetical order it wouldn't have any relivence to name your store 111AAA mart.
[17:46] Velouria Infinity: we also proposed in the group to make Showcase more granular
[17:46] Musique Gable: I don't agree with alphabetical order
[17:46] Shanti Sands: different sorts of sims/businesses will have different factors that make it a sucess or not - a club or RP sim will matter more with traffic numbers - a small 512 selling assorting goods to get off the ground has no interest in numbers, they just want the opportunity to be found in search and not swallowed
[17:46] Beithe Mills: the older search was alphabetical.........ended up with everyone with all spaces as parcel name
[17:46] Martin Magpie: it was just a suggestion, I am sure there is a much better way to do it within the LL code.
[17:46] sirhc DeSantis: no we are trying to find a traffic replacement
[17:46] Velouria Infinity: I'm sorry, am I spamming? Sorry abou that but this is pretty wild I am afraid
[17:46] Argos Hawks: Alphabetical would be infinitely worse than what we've got already
[17:46] Musique Gable: I agree Argos
[17:47] sirhc DeSantis: with argos
[17:47] Martin Magpie: like i said it was a basic suggestion
[17:47] Jeska Linden: Musique - there are subcategories for the Showcase, including "Home Furnishings".. but I agree there could be more!
[17:47] sirhc DeSantis: erm - like what? yiffing encouraged?
[17:47] Velouria Infinity: fltering on the showacase was very appreciated thru the group
[17:47] Musique Gable: that would be nice, but I noticed right away in Showcases, I'm shut out, UNLESS I get in a HOT SPOT
[17:47] Tequlia Tapioca: home furnishings or clothing is too generic possibly
[17:47] Jeska Linden: Sorry, trying to keep up :)
[17:48] Tim Gagliano: Showcase is good for CSI, Tmobile and CNN... but what about the little guy/girl? is this a money driven venture?
[17:48] Katt Linden: probably not that one sirhc
[17:48] Tequlia Tapioca: or high level i mean
[17:48] Jeska Linden: I'd like for the Showcase to continue to grow over time, if it's proven to be helpful
[17:48] Musique Gable: I agree Tim
[17:48] Musique Gable: Again, I'm weary of showcasing, especially if its left up to the Lindens to decide. No offense
[17:48] Martin Magpie: right if we have more detailed drop downs that would certainly help; Clothes > shirts, pant, shoes... Shoes> mens, womens... Color> black, blue, pink polka dot (you get the idea
[17:48] Tequlia Tapioca: its not available for most of us today at all
[17:48] Ann Otoole: jeska, i asked a pre question in my rsvp. whay are the categories on classifieds we pay for not present on the new all search. specifically why isnt shopping category an option in the new search?
[17:48] Jeska Linden: If not, back to the drawing board. I believe it's better than the POpular Places metaphor
[17:48] Beithe Mills: I just worry that it will end up with an underground of places that will never get into showcase
[17:48] Velouria Infinity: sex, BDSM and such will never have a place in the Showacase... while I love this I wonder... how much of the economy is just that?
[17:48] Tim Gagliano: that is why i want to see traffic stay, bots be banned and have camping as a flag...
[17:49] Musique Gable: Get rid of the bots and Popular Places and traffic wouldn't be a problem
[17:49] Darien Caldwell: I think traffic should be eliminated as a factor in search, then bots no longer matter. Businesses will have to invest in marketing and classifieds, just as in Real LIfe. It's the only reasonable way that I can see.
[17:49] Tequlia Tapioca: well not in pg like classifieds at least
[17:49] Original Prim: The showcase would be beneficial to some, but with many thousands of deserving locations out there it could become as cluttered as Search is.
[17:49] Velouria Infinity: darien you are shooting for economic suicide
[17:49] Jeska Linden: Ann - the basic answer is that google doesn't do categories well. At some point in the future, after search flagging and the traffic reworking, I'd like to see an improved classifieds system built as well. But that's further out (maybe by the end of the year?)
[17:49] Ann Otoole: nothing stopping anyone from opening a non LL showcase on the web to cover stuff LL could not possibly cover.
[17:49] Martin Magpie: and please give XXX and Camps their own tabs
[17:49] Musique Gable: I disagree, i work hard to get traffic, throw events, put things on my island for peolple to enjoy, so they stay a while
[17:49] Argos Hawks: But traffic based searching is what works best for hangout type places where you are trying to find people
[17:49] MikeVanMan Dagger: I'm sure Neva Naughty, Black Ops and Panda will be featured heavily, sad but true, many of the main creators have alot of sway on mid and a major effect on any new coming up stores
[17:49] Lee Lindman: If showcases eventually allows user submission with digg-esque voting like you mentioned earlier Jeska I think that would be a good non-traffic metric based way to show some of the cooler places in SL
[17:49] Ann Otoole: thanks Jeska. been real curious on that category thing
[17:50] Tim Gagliano: cause doing away with traffic is gonna generate alot of ghost towns.. you can kiss the nightclubs good bye who rely on the traffic rankings
[17:50] Darien Caldwell: No, it works in Real life, why wouldn't it work here?
[17:50] sirhc DeSantis: well - with lee on that
[17:50] Musique Gable: Right....events in general will drop
[17:50] MikeVanMan Dagger: so give XXX its own tab, should we give conservative christian s their own too?, genres are good
[17:50] Jeska Linden: Then we can have another set of ocnversations around how to improve classifieds ;)
[17:50] Lee Lindman: but I still think traffic metrics themselves are critical for parcel owners
[17:50] Shanti Sands: a random feature would be cool - not as a replacement but as a random per category perhaps
[17:50] Tequlia Tapioca: oh yes it does. its the use of the engines tools. its a big job mind. and i wouldnt expect Linden to be web google
[17:50] Argos Hawks: Lee, that would just be the same voting system that has failed before.
[17:51] Jeska Linden: Lee - I agree, metrics help you determine if what you're doing is successful :)
[17:51] Tequlia Tapioca: yes
[17:51] Jeska Linden: Telling parcel / estate owners what is happening on their land is key.
[17:51] Darien Caldwell: of course, metrics are key
[17:51] Musique Gable: Again, the common factor here is BOTS are gaming the system and will continue to unless you put a stop to them. It's killing the grid not just in resources but all over
[17:51] Jeska Linden: Better metrics is something we've wanted for a long time.
[17:51] Darien Caldwell: they give you direction on how to market :)
[17:52] Tequlia Tapioca: but how to stop the cheats is the bigger question.
[17:52] Tequlia Tapioca: manythings that would please us
[17:52] Tequlia Tapioca: will be cheated
[17:52] Shanti Sands: My education is in marketing/advertising so i really DO want to know the numbers to see what is working i just think that for many businesses, traffic rank should not influence exposure solely ( not including perhaps clubs and the like)
[17:52] MikeVanMan Dagger: we've tossed enuff ideas on how to fix or end bots
[17:52] Aliester Enoch: Musique, do you have proof that bots take up a lot of resources even? or are you just assuming that?
[17:52] Martin Magpie: I own both a mainland sim and an estate and I can tell you traffic doesn't help or hurt. It's nothing more than a web counter. "Refresh" anyone.
[17:52] Velouria Infinity: darien, this economy is closed, sprawled, you just need a metric for relevance, taken out the gamed spot, lool, I have my problems agreeing with people like Prokofy on this matter but it's true... not only that but all economic traffic is interwined, you won't keep having a business if the big guys fall and disappear. I urge all to be cautious on engaging on the no-traffic option because that is precisely what we DO NOT NEED
[17:52] MikeVanMan Dagger kics can around room
[17:52] Musique Gable: I'm all for that Shanti. I love the marketing part of SL myself
[17:52] Darien Caldwell: i agree martin
[17:52] Martin Magpie: sorry my alt does
[17:52] Original Prim: Do people ever find traffic difficult to read? The figure isn't representative of actual foot traffic, it's merely the total figure that's calculated at the end of the day and could be the same for two very different traffic patterns.
[17:52] Harvey Swenson: there is proof aliester
[17:52] Beithe Mills: i know it true on our isle, it is noticable with just 14
[17:53] Tequlia Tapioca: well yes Orignal
[17:53] Tequlia Tapioca: almost 4 years and yes
[17:53] Jeska Linden: nods
[17:53] Ann Otoole: stick an account on a parcfel for 24 hours and the traffic is 1440. the number of minutes in a day. me thinks the "complex formula" got replaced by a simple counter somewhere along the way.
[17:53] Shanti Sands: Its valuable, but as a feature to be utilized for analysis not to exclude the little people - upand coming businesses getting exposure also forces the big names to remain fresh, which can revitalize the community as well
[17:53] Tequlia Tapioca: and i am smart k
[17:53] Jeska Linden: So having better numbers to look at would definitely help to determine things like what time of day your store is busiest, how many avatars visit for the first time vs. repeat, etc
[17:54] Jeska Linden: (note still brainstorming here, not sure which of these numbers are possible yet!)
[17:54] Aliester Enoch: Right on Ann, the complex formula is a joke
[17:54] Tequlia Tapioca: what we did to accomplish.
[17:54] Harvey Swenson: and what they do when they get there Jeska would be good if possible
[17:54] Darien Caldwell: yes Jeska
[17:54] Velouria Infinity: it would Jeska, as it does presently I believe
[17:54] Tim Gagliano: Jeska.. Add TPs in ... to that equasion... that should help
[17:54] Argos Hawks: Jeska, those would be great, but that sounds like a nightmare for an already overtaxed system to track.
[17:54] Shanti Sands: Yes Jeska, for sure.
[17:54] Tequlia Tapioca: my traffic is 8k to 10k and some days i have my 3 campers and some not
[17:54] Jeska Linden: It would have to be on another db that's for sure :)
[17:54] Ann Otoole: sure jeska but what would help more is an end to traffic falsification unless it is decoupled from search and traffic bots become irrelevant
[17:54] Shanti Sands: lol i would hope :)
[17:54] Jeska Linden: And could probably be something you could 'save out'
[17:54] Jeska Linden: Maybe export to various formats.
[17:54] Tequlia Tapioca: but my campers do not make it higher normally
[17:55] Shanti Sands: oh that would be great!
[17:55] Velouria Infinity: absolutely jeska
[17:55] Darien Caldwell: like transactions
[17:55] Lee Lindman: Jeska - it would be nice if traffic was gathered by the viewer and sent to a external db
[17:55] Tim Gagliano: because you cannot tp in a bot (dont think you can...)
[17:55] Martin Magpie: so 1440 x5 alts kewl guess my traffic will be 7200 in the morning. Gaming the system.
[17:55] Jeska Linden: Ann - I think the first step is finding better metrics for parcel owners then figure out which metrics provides additional relevance for search
[17:55] Tequlia Tapioca: :)
[17:55] Lee Lindman: then other worlds like opensim could also be part of the traffic data collection
[17:55] Shanti Sands: yes like transactions that would be fantastic!
[17:55] MikeVanMan Dagger: what they do, everything from light a nuke in your shop, you view a vendor, talk smack, advertise or their own store with a similar product, how does this help? Why be the big brother of SL, heck, why buy in world with that look over the sholder nonsense, buy off slx
[17:56] Velouria Infinity: aha. Lee, you go SOOOO far :))
[17:56] Original Prim: More choice rather than less is ideal. Traffic could be retained, but available as an sorting option, depending on personal preference.
[17:56] Lee Lindman: always thinking ahead :)
[17:56] Jeska Linden: Lee with the 50,000 foot vision ;)
[17:56] Velouria Infinity: :))
[17:56] Argos Hawks: Transactions could be a great bit of info for the landowner, but another terrible idea to put into the search algorithm. Again, too easy to fake.
[17:56] Tequlia Tapioca: yes
[17:56] MikeVanMan Dagger forms I love Lee group, charges 500L join fee and pays for campers for next 3 weeeks
[17:56] Jeska Linden: Oh! While we're talking about metrics - what other kinds of metrics would you like about classifieds?
[17:56] Shanti Sands: agreed
[17:57] Jeska Linden: Right now I think we give number of teleports, number of profile opened and number of views
[17:57] Jeska Linden: ?
[17:57] Tim Gagliano shouts: take out the pay per rank!
[17:57] Tim Gagliano: oops
[17:57] Tim Gagliano: sorry for the shout
[17:57] Tequlia Tapioca: well ones that are consistant
[17:57] Tim Gagliano: Hahahahahahahaha
[17:57] Jeska Linden: hehe
[17:57] Tequlia Tapioca: i have repeating ads and weekly
[17:57] Darien Caldwell: i'd like to know how many views that *didn't* TP
[17:57] Velouria Infinity: roads, finishe them and place the proper ads on them
[17:57] Martin Magpie: I honestly wonder what the advantage of reworking a broken system is.
[17:57] Tequlia Tapioca: and man thats hard to follow
[17:57] Harvey Swenson: being able to change the price on classifieds would be good
[17:57] Tequlia Tapioca: when you take my money a flash to the next traffic
[17:57] Shanti Sands: what about a *hot* area - for instance that weeks classifieds that drew TPs and not just big buck spenders - may be different
[17:58] Jeska Linden: Tequlia - so a system to track campaigns?
[17:58] Tequlia Tapioca: does not do it
[17:58] Original Prim: Possibly to track how long the classified was on screen for, to see if it was actually read?
[17:58] Tequlia Tapioca: yes
[17:58] Jeska Linden: ie: I ran ads a/b/c for 2/4/6 weeks etc
[17:58] Musique Gable: YOu can still game that Shanti...with bots
[17:58] Tequlia Tapioca: you do sort of i think
[17:58] Velouria Infinity: make classified accessible on the territory, just as in RL
[17:58] Shanti Sands: True
[17:58] Tequlia Tapioca: but it flashes so fast
[17:58] Tequlia Tapioca: i am not always so alert
[17:58] Shanti Sands: Darn you Musique lol :D but you are right.
[17:58] Tequlia Tapioca: and i am quick
[17:58] Musique Gable: hehe
[17:58] Jeska Linden: :)
[17:59] Original Prim: the keyword(s) which lead to it being discovered
[18:00] Jeska Linden: Thanks everyone again for the conversation
FYI MY TRAFFIC FOR LAST NIGHT WAS 72 NOT 7200 AS WAS DISCUSSED ABOVE. THAT IS THE LOWEST MY TRAFFIC HAS BEEN IN FOREVER. COINCIDENCE? I AM TO JADED TO THINK IT WAS.
[17:00] Jeska Linden: Now then, I'd like to distribute our chat log to the group after the meeting, is anyone not ok with that?
[17:01] Jeska Linden: (usually easier than asking who IS ok ;)
[17:01] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:01] Velouria Infinity: okeys chat proliferation
[17:01] MikeVanMan Dagger: ^^
[17:01] Musique Gable grins
[17:01] Jeska Linden: Excellent!
[17:02] Jeska Linden: Ok, we've got an hour here to brainstorm - gather thoughts and ideas - and I'd like for us to cover three different things today, but don't worry I'll push us along if we get caught up in one thing too long.
[17:02] Jeska Linden: flexes her old-school moderator muscles
[17:02] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:02] Musique Gable nods
[17:02] Martin Magpie: haha nice
[17:02] Jeska Linden: The three things I'd like for us to cover include: Showcase replacing Popular Places in the viewer, parcel metrics, and the future of traffic.
[17:03] Jeska Linden: First, briefly, some background.
[17:03] Jeska Linden: I'm sure you all saw in the initial blog post -
[17:03] Jeska Linden: http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/04/28/second-life-showcase-popular-places-and-the-future-of-traffic/
[17:03] Musique Gable: Yes
[17:03] Tequlia Tapioca: nope but i will
[17:03] Velouria Infinity: yes
[17:03] MikeVanMan Dagger: nods
[17:03] Martin Magpie nods
[17:03] Jeska Linden: We're planning on replacing the Popular Places tab content with content pulled from the Showcase on the Second Life Web site with the next Release Candidate
[17:04] Jeska Linden: Anticipating that this would bring up much conversation around traffic and metrics, we wanted to open the conversation up to the community (hence the group and these meetings).
[17:04] Jeska Linden: Let's start with Popular Places...
[17:04] Musique Gable: Okay.
[17:04] Jeska Linden: I'd like to make sure everyone is aware why we are making this switch over -
[17:05] Jeska Linden: then we can take any questions and move to the meatier issue of metrics and traffic :)
[17:05] Velouria Infinity: traffic gaming being key, correct?
[17:05] Jeska Linden: The Popular Places tab was started a long time ago, when the world of Second Life was much, much smaller in all meanings of the word.
[17:05] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:05] Jeska Linden: Velouria - we can spend some time talking about gaming in a few..
[17:05] Velouria Infinity: kk
[17:06] Jeska Linden: It only lists 20 parcels with the highest "traffic" numbers. t that time it was also tied to a "traffice incentive" where LL paid the people who had the most traffic (which has not been done for some time but used to be my job for awhile ;)
[17:06] Jeska Linden: The Showcase is something a bit different - it's been on the SL Website for the last few months and highlights various inworld locations which have interesting content, activities, or experiences.
[17:06] Musique Gable: My only problem I see with Showcases thus far is I'd hate to see favoritism come into play. How are places shown in Showcases going to be determined?
[17:06] Jeska Linden: The hope is that Showcase will allow quality venues to get listed without having the pressure of keeping traffic high and help allow the depth of experiences in Second Life to come to the surface of Search.
[17:07] Jeska Linden: We also have plans to add a method in the future (we're getting feedback on the proposed design currently), which includes a way for Residents to nominate things for Showcase from inworld.
[17:07] Jeska Linden: I'd like to take a few minutes to get your thoughts and feedback on this and take any suggestions on this change before moving on to the next topic (metrics!).
[17:07] Jeska Linden: Musique - we can start with that
[17:07] Martin Magpie: Is Showcase a done deal or is that still up for discussion?
[17:07] Jeska Linden: Martin - the Showcase switch is pretty much done (I believe the code was checked in today) but we can still make changes to the html
[17:08] Tequlia Tapioca: well its fairer to have residence vote but bots can vote alot
[17:08] Musique Gable: exactly Tequila
[17:08] Jeska Linden: And as the program grows (and is hopefully successful) we may be able to add more Linden staff to do more things with it
[17:08] Destiny Niles: at welcome areas and infohubs there are kioskos that gives landmarks - will those be utillzied also?
[17:08] Carla Chandrayaan: it's a done deal. they're ust deciding how to select featured places or whether/how to allow residents to nimonate places for it
[17:08] Martin Magpie: bots voting is also a worry for me.
[17:08] MikeVanMan Dagger: Good point Destiny
[17:08] Jeska Linden: There is another project underway to rework landmarks, which has had some discussion on the SL Dev list I believe.
[17:08] Velouria Infinity: Showcase may be good for LL and in a limited form for businesses new to SL which see a polished and more interesting venue as to why be here and what risk their brand is taking
[17:09] Jeska Linden: nods
[17:09] Velouria Infinity: but obvously risks for favorits sky very high and we can not
[17:09] Velouria Infinity: hide they are there
[17:09] MikeVanMan Dagger: Hubs can be used MUCH better then what they're used for nowadays, which is more like a drinking cooler for old early dwellers for which said hub rests upon
[17:09] Jeska Linden: I'm also taking suggestions and other feedback back to the Showcase team (the very, very small Showcase Editorial team)
[17:09] Velouria Infinity: is natural
[17:09] Lee Lindman: So showcase will be driven solely by a manual voting process ?
[17:09] Carla Chandrayaan: I don't really anticipate the showcase 'helping' businesses in SL. But doing away with the rigged numbers for popular places might
[17:09] Tequlia Tapioca: :) team of 1
[17:09] Velouria Infinity: suspicion is running very very high about it
[17:09] Ann Otoole: How is this system not going to remain basically what the fashion page is where LL decides who will be a top successful fashion store? I.e.; are you going to get out of the business of favoring certain account or will LL begin taking pay for positiong on the showcase? And how will LL prevent gaming of this? comes right around to the question of exactly how many access accounts are allowed per unique person, per household, per IP address.
[17:10] Velouria Infinity: but also this seems to be open to further gaming
[17:10] Velouria Infinity: from the resi's side
[17:10] Jeska Linden: Currently the Showcase is an editorialized list chosen by several people, but in the future (hopefully sooner rather than later) there will be an easier way to nominate things for th list from inside the viewer.
[17:10] MikeVanMan Dagger: There should be incentives to great locations that continue to reface their store with new products and a fresh look. These are places that could maybe be labeled as ACTIVE, where as within the last 30-45 days this location has been updated and is fresh. Maybe have a color system, green as fresh content, yellow (60-90 days) and red (120+ days), since last updated.
[17:11] Velouria Infinity: jacek Antonelli proposed something about incentivating/de-incentivating rating from resis
[17:11] Velouria Infinity: albeit complicated
[17:11] Tequlia Tapioca: good old days
[17:11] Beithe Mills: resis?
[17:11] Velouria Infinity: residents
[17:11] Jeska Linden: resis/residents? :)
[17:11] Jeska Linden: Torley-ism?
[17:11] Beithe Mills: ah
[17:11] Velouria Infinity: was there such a system in place in the past?
[17:12] Tequlia Tapioca: for us
[17:12] Tequlia Tapioca: avatar rates
[17:12] Ann Otoole: What is to stop one store owner from asking 10,000 customers to go to a competitor and flagging for content abuse while recommending that designer's store for showcase. its impossible and will be gamed.
[17:12] Velouria Infinity: Ann poses the problem we see
[17:12] Beithe Mills: but that would be easily spotted Ann
[17:12] Jeska Linden: Ann - We can speak a bit about the search flagging proposal if you'd like, but I'd rather focus in on the traffic issues for this meeting.
[17:12] sirhc DeSantis: ann all systems will be gamed
[17:13] Original Prim: Impartiality is an issue in Linden selected picks too, as many Lindens are successful business owners themselves.
[17:13] Jeska Linden: We've been speaking with several groups with an early (super early) proposal for search flagging.
[17:13] Darien Caldwell: how many stores have 10,000 customers willing to be dishonest? it's rather a silly notion.
[17:13] Harvey Swenson: why isnt the showcase just a random selection of nominated places? once they're vetted then just display them randomly?
[17:13] Ann Otoole: no it wouldnt. besides, who will police it? LL hasn't the staff for that. And what would LL do? delete the scammer accounts?
[17:13] Beithe Mills: and 10,000 customers without one that would report it......
[17:14] Argos Hawks: it wouldn't take 10,000. may not even take 10.
[17:14] Musique Gable: someone can make 10,000 alts, not impossible....stranger things have happened in SL
[17:14] Jeska Linden: Did anyone else have suggestions on how to improve the Showcase or any other questions on the removal of POpular places?
[17:14] Tequlia Tapioca: its a hard question and why you are here now
[17:14] Martin Magpie: Generally speaking any improvement to the current search is much needed not just for the residents but also for LL. I am glad to hear that the list is checked by more than one person. I still have concerns that a it will become another popularity contest and it's not about what you do; more of who you know.
[17:14] Argos Hawks: Don't include stores in the Showcase.
[17:14] MikeVanMan Dagger: popular places could have tabs at the very least
[17:14] Velouria Infinity: if we remove pop places what incentives bots have still to clog those high places?
[17:14] Musique Gable: I say put Popular Places in the residents hads.....as we ARE what make SL, SL
[17:14] Tequlia Tapioca: bots and abuses are hard to deal with
[17:15] Tim Gagliano: Can I ask a question of a Linden?
[17:15] Ann Otoole: ratings were gamed. ratings were removed. nobody got hurt. SL doesnt need voting for popularity systems. i agree reporting content clearly in violation of the CS/TOS is needed and there is an AR system now although it may need governance over the governance team
[17:15] Velouria Infinity: then ban bots in the TOS
[17:15] Dirk Talamasca: New residents are not allowed to place a vote
[17:15] Original Prim: Resident nomination does sound promising and I'm confident you can find ways to lessen gaming
[17:15] Shanti Sands: anything with resident voting to me is asking for *easy* bot abuse
[17:15] Jeska Linden: Martin - I understand the concern, my hope is that once we have search flagging in and nominations start rolling in, we can use that data within the Showcase
[17:15] Beithe Mills: What about violent/adult locations, would LL even consider showcasing those.........i do not run one, but content can be an issue on something like the showcase can it not?
[17:15] Tequlia Tapioca: bots are ages old
[17:15] Jeska Linden: Possibly like Digg or Craiglist does
[17:15] Carla Chandrayaan: I agree that it should be a rnadom pick. Unbiased (except possibly against overtly mature themes) of all sim or businesses or adventurous places i Sl
[17:15] Musique Gable: The thing is, there is nothing stopping bots/alts from entering SL...that therein lies the problem
[17:15] Tequlia Tapioca: only paying members gets votes is not right either
[17:16] Velouria Infinity: some even suggest a thirdy party to deliver reviews
[17:16] MikeVanMan Dagger: bots are defnitly a drain on resources, I logged on this monday morning, 56k residents online...where are these people? My friends and I have scoured everywhere.....the answer lies 85 bots jammed in a sky box
[17:16] Tequlia Tapioca: unless all are paying
[17:16] Tim Gagliano: Why do this instead of Enforcing the TOS.... If we Enforced the TOS, Traffic could stay... or.. have a filter to remove the bots/campers... to show REAL traffic
[17:16] Beithe Mills: We arent talking about traffic Yet, A/all
[17:16] sirhc DeSantis: with tim
[17:16] Velouria Infinity: So I ask, why are bots not a TOS volation or taxed financially with a separate bot account?
[17:16] Musique Gable: I'd be game for that, Tim. When I joined SL, I had to verify my account. I know its unpopular, but would stop all these bots/alts draining SL and gaming areas
[17:16] Argos Hawks: unless you tie the votes to a specific identity, all systems that involve voting are no better than the current traffic system.
[17:16] Darien Caldwell: but I think Traffic is what everyone wants to talk about. :)
[17:16] Jeska Linden: Ok, I've got some good thoughts to take back to the Showcase team, let's talk for a minute about metrics
[17:16] Jeska Linden: :)
[17:16] MikeVanMan Dagger: yes
[17:17] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:17] Harvey Swenson: I'd still prefer the shocase to be random rather than a list edited by the lindens
[17:17] Martin Magpie: Other than the obvious flagging as you mentioned how would that be any different than the old green box voting system?
[17:17] Jeska Linden: Currently the only Linden provided metric for your parcel/estate is traffic.
[17:17] Tim Gagliano: ?
[17:17] Beithe Mills: Valid questions were drained out by the crowd
[17:17] MikeVanMan Dagger: metrics/visitors on one parcel should be determined to how much in one sim you own
[17:17] Musique Gable: Jeska, just let them know not to alienate the SL populance with Showcasing...don't take it out of our hands
[17:17] MikeVanMan Dagger: obviously if you own an isle(s), you're in control of that 100%
[17:17] Jeska Linden: Martin - we have actual editorial staff dedicated to it now and more resources to maintain it (not to mention easily update it with html int he viewer)
[17:18] Velouria Infinity: I am confident that LL can EditoriLI
[17:18] Jeska Linden: Traffic is calculated using a complex algorithm and is based on the amount of Residents who visited, and the time spent on that parcel out of their total time inworld that day.
[17:18] sirhc DeSantis: well i only have a little place but i still want to know if its worth keeping
[17:18] Jeska Linden: Let's spend a few minutes brainstorming what other types of things you'd like to know about people who visit your parcel/region.
[17:18] Tequlia Tapioca grins at complex
[17:18] Martin Magpie: I'm familair with meta data.
[17:18] Dirk Talamasca: Should a resident or group or residents work to skew the metrics, what would be the severity of punishment if any?
[17:18] Ann Otoole: if the discussion is now traffic then i would love an answer to the direct question of how many accounts per person are allowed, how many per household, and how many per IP address, and is IP spoofing allowed, and if not then how can LL enforce the rules? If the rules we have observed on the website as to 5 accounts were enforced then why do we see one parcel owner clearly running 50 bots in a box as it is?
[17:18] Jeska Linden: Remember that this could also be tied into advertising campaigns (classifieds/etc) in the future..
[17:18] Velouria Infinity: sorry... LL can editorialize well and polished but until we answer the bot question we won't go far
[17:18] Argos Hawks: Any list of Linden approved stores is always going to be subject to accusations of cronyism, regardless of how well it's done.
[17:18] Tequlia Tapioca: i run neural
[17:18] Darien Caldwell: Id like to know how people found my parcel, by landmark, classifed, places or other method.
[17:18] MikeVanMan Dagger: It is not right for a new resident or one that only wants a small parcel to be forced out of where they are living because a new mall or club feels they have the right to jam them out with bots, campers
[17:19] Musique Gable: I agree Argos...it already leaves a bad taste in my mouth
[17:19] Velouria Infinity: we're stuck with wondering if bots are or not a TOS violation
[17:19] Darien Caldwell: Id also like to know what keywords are most associated with my parcel
[17:19] Musique Gable: that would be helpful, Darien
[17:19] Lee Lindman: I'd like to see Alexa-ish data about my parcel visitors
[17:19] Destiny Niles agrees with Darien
[17:19] Musique Gable: what keywords draw people to your sim
[17:19] sirhc DeSantis: i'd like to know if they come back
[17:19] Original Prim: Kinda like what Ann said, if traffic calculations took unique IP address into account too, do you think it could reduce bot abuse?
[17:19] Lee Lindman: country they came from, the viewer versions
[17:19] Martin Magpie: I do have to say ty for removing popular places if that was the best SL had to offer it wasn't much.
[17:19] Argos Hawks: Jeska, you just mentioned it could be tied to advertising campaigns. Are you suggesting that people buy their way into the Linden approved list?
[17:19] Velouria Infinity: so maybe jeska can give us hints on how to penalize bots?
[17:19] Musique Gable: That what it sounds like
[17:20] Tequlia Tapioca: Bots have some useful purpose to somebody that matters
[17:20] Carla Chandrayaan: Flagging IP adresses would do nothing since anyone can change their IP at any time
[17:20] Shanti Sands: Id like to know main searchterms used to find me on top of Dariens list
[17:20] Tequlia Tapioca: linden maybe themselves
[17:20] Beithe Mills: 1: source they came in by, 2: if they immediatelly tped back out again or moved from the landing 3: age of AV
[17:20] Jeska Linden: Bots aren't currently against the Terms of Service
[17:20] Carla Chandrayaan: but a code written to the hard drive of someone siging up would do it.
[17:20] Velouria Infinity: then bots will stay, just traffic can go down the drain? I do not understand
[17:20] Tim Gagliano: how so?
[17:20] Ann Otoole: i think if the top abusing people clearly running more than the 5 accounts allowed were deleted from sl the rest of the bot runners would stop.
[17:20] Tequlia Tapioca: right but most residence feel they should be
[17:20] Tequlia Tapioca: i have 6
[17:20] Darien Caldwell: The only way to stop the abuse of bots is to make their use less attractive.
[17:20] Tim Gagliano: Arent bots listed as Illegal Alt Accounts?
[17:20] Tequlia Tapioca: i am not an abuser
[17:20] Darien Caldwell: if they give no benefit, people won't use them
[17:21] Velouria Infinity: let's give jeska more room on this.................
[17:21] Jeska Linden: Yeah sorry, I got lost in all the questions there...
[17:21] Dirk Talamasca: I think that is a good odea, Lee... Jeska, information about parcels should be returned to residents in a format that is easily understood and not in cryptic jargon that would require them to track Meta down at office hours.
[17:21] Musique Gable: Why even allow them in the gate to begin with though? They're just nipples it in the bud and you won't have the abuse problems
[17:21] Shanti Sands: the longer you are in world the more oppoortunity to try new things = more alts ( no need for 25 mind you)
[17:21] Tequlia Tapioca: sorry Jeska
[17:21] Musique Gable: damn triggers
[17:21] sirhc DeSantis: if i thought camping/bots would work - but if traffic is gone..
[17:21] Jeska Linden: Let's back up a bit and finish pulling info on what metrics you'd like on your parcel
[17:21] Argos Hawks: are we still talking about showcase, or did it switch?
[17:21] Ann Otoole: i'd just like a yes or no on the 5 accounts allowed or is it really unlimited accounts.
[17:21] MikeVanMan Dagger: There is a few gadgets I've seen, even code I've looked at too to see how it was implemented, where you can plant an antena, and artifically implant 10-99 bots, and with the pull of that one antenna disable all of the bots or any number of them in one key stroke
[17:21] Original Prim: There are legitimate uses of IP cloning, such as universities (vip!), but perhaps organizations who are planning to log in multiple accounts from the same IP could be asked to apply for a special exemption?
[17:21] Jeska Linden: I understand that bots are a topic of concern within the community.
[17:21] Martin Magpie: I did a quick search the other day for residental rentals, i was pointed to a store with over 50k traffic. I clicked on the map 0 avatars. Bots.
[17:21] Musique Gable: As you can see, Jeska. Showcase is a concern for a lot of us....
[17:22] Tequlia Tapioca: well they interfear with all you try to do
[17:22] Darien Caldwell: to repeat what I said earlier, Id like to know how people found my parcel, by landmark, classifed, places or other method. as well Id also like to know what keywords are most associated with my parcel.
[17:22] Jeska Linden: Ann - I believe the Terms of Service say "You may register multiple accounts per identification method only at Linden Lab's sole discretion." it is not limited per the TOS. Historically on the website, we've limited to 5 per "human"
[17:22] Musique Gable seconds Darien
[17:22] Shanti Sands agrees with Darien
[17:22] Jeska Linden: But I'm no laywer ;)
[17:22] Tim Gagliano: Ok
[17:22] Tim Gagliano: but
[17:22] MikeVanMan Dagger: maybe two accounts per credit card is the answer
[17:22] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:22] Tim Gagliano: why go with showcase
[17:22] Dirk Talamasca: Time of Day, Origin of Visitor, Time Spent on Parcel, How the Resident fond the parcel (if known) profile, classified, SLURL etc
[17:23] Velouria Infinity: why not charging bot accounts heavily? if they are declared HUMAN then they are in violation
[17:23] Ann Otoole: ok so unlimited accounts are allowed. we can run 100 bots if we want. (useless as it may be). bots are golden.
[17:23] Darien Caldwell: yes, good ones Dirk
[17:23] Velouria Infinity: are they?
[17:23] sirhc DeSantis: metrics Jeska - an accessible rating to say visitors enjoyed them selves
[17:23] Elizabeth Durnan: So bots are ok, because it makes the current users online look pretty spiffy.
[17:23] Jeska Linden: Thanks Darien
[17:23] Tequlia Tapioca: but that does not work if you allow no payment right?
[17:23] Lee Lindman: we need google analytics for Second Life
[17:23] Beithe Mills: Y'all are stpepping away from the question.......
[17:23] Tim Gagliano: instead of TOS enforcement? and actually ban bots... You cannot tell me that having 90 bots over a club is for anything other then POP list gaming...
[17:23] Musique Gable: The problem we all seem to have its bots...it strains LL resources and is gaming the system. Lets get rid of the bots
[17:23] Velouria Infinity: I believe you should declare a bot account and be taxed heavily for it or incur in banning
[17:24] Destiny Niles: can we get off bots. they been around as long as SL™ and will be around
[17:24] Martin Magpie nods at Tim
[17:24] Lee Lindman: Destiny - agreed
[17:24] Tequlia Tapioca: well they activate their bot script logging but they would write a new script
[17:24] sirhc DeSantis: a universal across the board rating system
[17:24] Jeska Linden: Ok, I've heard a lot of people asking for unique, which is the industry standard for web metrics...
[17:24] Ann Otoole: ok so now the issue of traffic abuse to raise relevance. since unlimited accounts are allowed then traffic needs to be decoupled from anything that raises relevance at all since traffic is a totally bogus number. because bots are allowed. fine with me. decouple traffic from anything other than the parcel traffic mesure. problem solved.
[17:25] Argos Hawks: If we only count traffic from accounts tied to an actual human identity (PIOF), and only count one avatar per human at any time, bot running for traffic purposes dies.
[17:25] Musique Gable: that's not a bad idea, Argos
[17:25] MikeVanMan Dagger: I have a few alt accounts I use for scripting/building....and if and when I log them on in my store it's for modeling my gadgets, a new gun, etc, and this I feel is good use of "botting", and I could care less about traffic with popular places and all
[17:25] Jeska Linden: Unique?
[17:25] Carla Chandrayaan: Jeska, just a thought, but I'd sure like to see folks have the ability to 'connect' conneted sims that they won and make all their info one and the ame
[17:25] Jeska Linden: Repeat?
[17:25] Carla Chandrayaan: same*
[17:25] Musique Gable: I agree with Carla on that as well
[17:25] Orion Shamroy: Unique does seem logical. Rather than some voodoo hocus pocus algorithm that accounts for too many things and winds up giving us some mysterious number that has no comprehendable meaning...
[17:25] Jeska Linden: I'm not sure what you mean Carla, explain?
[17:26] Carla Chandrayaan: err own not won... lol I paid through the nose for mine lol
[17:26] Musique Gable: if you own two sims, they have two different traffics
[17:26] Velouria Infinity: guys, we need to moderate ourselves or we are not going anywere, theres like a ton of meat on the fire here
[17:26] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:26] Musique Gable: even though they are connected
[17:26] Jeska Linden: Ok, so you'd like comprehensive metrics or a way to compile metrics for all of your land?
[17:26] Martin Magpie: That makes a lot of sence Carla, less info for the servers to process as well.
[17:26] Velouria Infinity: I see some rosting burgers even :)
[17:26] Beithe Mills: She wants to have people be able to connect all parcels they own as one, under one search entry
[17:26] Velouria Infinity is pausing
[17:26] Destiny Niles: Yes, multisim metrics
[17:26] Carla Chandrayaan: jeska, folks who own multiple sims, if given the ability to make them all count as 'one' with regard to whatever information IS available on them... I just thinkn it would work well
[17:26] Shanti Sands: Basically instead of joining parcels, joining sims under one.
[17:26] sirhc DeSantis: individual - i have different parcels
[17:27] Tequlia Tapioca: oh good idea
[17:27] Carla Chandrayaan: I'm talking about connected sims like mine
[17:27] Dirk Talamasca: I am not really sure that unique has much application here as you can often return to a parcel with friends, or visit several times a day because the parcel has several different events going on in the same day.. If your parcel provides content that persuades visitors to return, you should receive credit for that.
[17:27] Jeska Linden: I believe estates allow that - you can have shared traits on an estate basis
[17:27] sirhc DeSantis: like a meta sim
[17:27] Jeska Linden: So offer metrics on an estate basis as well as region and parcel?
[17:27] Tequlia Tapioca: not rank or traffic
[17:27] Jeska Linden: I'm still talking about metrics :)
[17:27] Destiny Niles: yes Jeska
[17:27] Carla Chandrayaan: From one sim to another? Or just one parcel intersim to another same sim parcel?
[17:27] sirhc DeSantis: well Jeska - lets see what works
[17:27] Darien Caldwell: I don't know that I would want to have traffic combined across multiple sims, different paracels are for different uses, and I'd like to evaluate them based on their own merits. :)
[17:28] Tim Gagliano: Jeska... why go with showcase when all you have to do is ban bots.... make it apart of the TOS like it should be... and as for camping... have a flag setup so that honest SIM owners can be once again apart of the top 20
[17:28] Lee Lindman: Start with parcel metrics, but then offer a way to group all your owned parcels together for a summary of metrics
[17:28] Ann Otoole: lets keep in mind bots are allowed. as many as desired. So now we need to find a we to remove them from relavance. filtering out NIOF may sound good but theres a lot of NPIOFs that are unhappy about their picks not being counted in support of their favorite locations. so to have a voice in sl must we move to payment info on file or used? or just make the jump to premium accounts are the only ones counted?
[17:28] Jeska Linden: Darien - doesn't have to be traffic, I'm thinking more of way to break out metrics for various things - like unique visitors or repeat visitors, etc
[17:28] Musique Gable: I agree, Tim
[17:28] Argos Hawks: We're trying to get away from people gaming traffic. Combining traffic from several sims to be used for a store on one of them would be crazy.
[17:28] Martin Magpie: Jeska why does traffic have to be tied to seach?
[17:28] Darien Caldwell: as long as you can get on a per parcel basis as well
[17:29] Musique Gable: I have to admit as a shopper, I use PlACES in search more than I do classified
[17:29] sirhc DeSantis: Jeska - that would be a step forward
[17:29] Dirk Talamasca: I agree Darien.. That doesn't make much sense. You may as well just count on your own vendors to provide numbers that show whether that parcel is generating sales
[17:29] Carla Chandrayaan: Traffic needs to be tied to search right now. Otherwise, the only thing left is who is willing to pay the most for classifieds
[17:29] Jeska Linden: Martin - I'm not sure it does, but that is kind of the next topic...
[17:29] Tequlia Tapioca: traffics only a small part from what i can gather
[17:29] Musique Gable: I agree, Carla
[17:29] Ann Otoole: tying relevance to an estate will effectively favor anshe chung and the other 2 major land barons. not going to fly.
[17:29] Carla Chandrayaan: And while that may be good for LL, it's not good for residents
[17:29] Jeska Linden: Are there any other metrics that people would like to see on their land?
[17:29] Beithe Mills: What else would search be based on........for those selling hair, who should be listed first if traffic is not used?
[17:29] Martin Magpie: ty :)
[17:29] Tequlia Tapioca: other then places
[17:29] MikeVanMan Dagger: It would benefit LL more in RL $$ with higher dollar classifieds, what do you as a business structure get out of artificially inflated traffic numbers other then big world commerse which has brought more heartache then anything to SL/
[17:29] Tim Gagliano: hmmmm
[17:30] sirhc DeSantis: yes - a universal rating survey
[17:30] Tim Gagliano: well at least someone is not here to shout me down
[17:30] Dirk Talamasca: Age Range and Sex would be nice
[17:30] Jeska Linden: Beithe - that is what we are trying to figure out.
[17:30] Original Prim: I do think it's useful to know how people found your parcel, whether from places search, classifieds, profile pick, slurl from a website, etc
[17:30] Musique Gable: most people lie about that Dirk...what does that matter?
[17:30] Shanti Sands: Information i would like to see as a business tool and things I would like to see used as a menthod for rating search rank are two different things to me
[17:30] Harvey Swenson: click thru's same as every other search engine
[17:30] Argos Hawks: For the About Land window, I'd like to see unique visitors in addition to traffic, but it would be disasterous to rank search by unique visitors. That's easier to game than traffic.
[17:31] Carla Chandrayaan: classifieds already give you results information
[17:31] Ann Otoole: question jeska. you seem to be defecting any conversation about abuse. so is this just a request for additional metric ideas and there will be no consideration of the blatant abuse and falsification going on?
[17:31] Martin Magpie: Dirk I have issues with anyone giving out my personal information. age and sex. that isn't anyones business in sl unless i tell them.
[17:31] Lee Lindman: it'd be nice to have something like a 'bounce' metric. How many people teleported onto your sim and immediately left
[17:31] Dirk Talamasca: Indeed it is Argos
[17:31] Beithe Mills: Yes, sorry was asking that in response to a few calls for disconnecting search and traffic totally
[17:31] Carla Chandrayaan: they tell you how may TP's are made, how many profile views, etc
[17:31] Lee Lindman: or left within a given time range, like 5 seconds
[17:31] Musique Gable: I agree, I don't want to get into sex, age, etc...people aren't truthful about that do begin with
[17:31] Musique Gable: and who cares
[17:31] Original Prim: Lee, that might have to take crashing into account, as that often happens following teleport
[17:31] Destiny Niles: metrics over time would be nice also instead of yesterdays visits
[17:31] Tequlia Tapioca: same sort shows on an ad?
[17:31] Martin Magpie: (or they look at my profile lol)
[17:31] Jeska Linden: Ann - at this point in the design (early) I'm trying to find out what the community wants so we can mock up a proposed design
[17:32] Martin Magpie: but i hope you see my point.
[17:32] Beithe Mills: Ann, that was the third part of the planned talk, relax, hehe
[17:32] MikeVanMan Dagger: right who cares about RL demographics unless you're using SL as a lead generation tool for your RL business
[17:32] Tequlia Tapioca: but with unique visits
[17:32] Lee Lindman: we can report on crashes no?
[17:32] Shanti Sands: ok SL demographics :D
[17:32] Tequlia Tapioca: still does not stop bots but better
[17:32] Velouria Infinity: Tim, we are not carpet-bombing you, I hope they won't carpet bomb me lol.... Jeska what is possible to do technically to reduce impact of bots and what is LL willing to do to restrict the influence of bots on any metric system that you are going to implement? I feel if we pin down the right position towards bots we speed up towards better ways to metric....
[17:32] sirhc DeSantis: can we?
[17:32] Lee Lindman: I'm pretty sure I've seen statistics from LL on crash rates
[17:32] Tim Gagliano: JESKA... ban bots... and put in a flag for camping.. that is what I want :)
[17:32] Musique Gable: I agree, Vel
[17:32] Tequlia Tapioca: they have them :)
[17:33] sirhc DeSantis: with tim
[17:33] Darien Caldwell: Bots can't be banned. but they can be made irrelevant.
[17:33] MikeVanMan Dagger: campers=red, bad, false traffic
[17:33] Jeska Linden: nods
[17:33] Tim Gagliano: leave traffic as it is...
[17:33] Martin Magpie: well said Vel
[17:33] Tim Gagliano: but ban the bots
[17:33] sirhc DeSantis: ok - tell me how many camper spots in a parcel
[17:33] Argos Hawks: If you only count traffic from PIOF accounts, and only one count one avatar per person, traffic bots go away immediately.
[17:33] Tequlia Tapioca: well i say levels of camps. 5 or less 10 or more sort if you do
[17:33] Tim Gagliano: make it a TOS infraction
[17:33] Jeska Linden: Darien is right, it is practically impossible to prevent bots, nor are all bots "evil" (some are kind of cool)
[17:33] Shanti Sands: bah LL just needs to publish a clear cut and definitive standard for the use of bots and differntiate them from legitamite accounts. They are different. Clear this subject and we can move on to better things.
[17:33] MikeVanMan Dagger: camper spots should be based on how much land you own in the sim
[17:33] Tequlia Tapioca: some of us do it for other then traffic reasons
[17:33] Tim Gagliano: ok
[17:33] Shanti Sands: * legit alt accounts i meant
[17:33] Velouria Infinity: have them pay for a dedicated bot account, heavy fees, while making traffic less permeable to them is a compromise I would accept
[17:33] Musique Gable: there is a difference between BOTS and ALTS
[17:33] MikeVanMan Dagger: but to a degree if you dont own 100% obviosly
[17:34] Argos Hawks: No it isn't. You can prevent traffic bots by only counting one avatar per verifed human
[17:34] Ann Otoole: then why not just log the data and let parcel owners query it. we can get everything we need. visitors by payment status, repeat visitors, duration per visit, total visit time and all by day, week, month, etc. raw data is more valuable than just some made up formula numbers. dump the visit data to a seperate data warehouse and allow parcel owners to queery it via the web.
[17:34] Shanti Sands agrees with Musique
[17:34] sirhc DeSantis: teq - thats fine. just tell me
[17:34] Tim Gagliano: when you have 90 above a club for 10 days.... and you club cannot hold more then 20 people.. that is a problem
[17:34] Velouria Infinity: thats something LL can also do, Ann
[17:34] Jeska Linden: But I agree with Shanti, I think it's clear that we're not keen on Bots and should work to either allow people to identify them within their metrics or make clearer guidelines on their usage. I'll take that back to the search team.
[17:34] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:34] Velouria Infinity: dump traffic on known bot users
[17:34] Shanti Sands: Yes those are bots, not alts. Usage factors in to what is and isn't a bot.
[17:34] Ann Otoole: would be less of a load than making up more encoded formulas
[17:34] Martin Magpie: bots are kewl till they take down the grid. sorry but that is a reality.
[17:35] Original Prim: Bots could register themselves with the server and have "bot" branded on their profile and elsewhere
[17:35] Dirk Talamasca: Less Load = Good
[17:35] Argos Hawks: shanti, any usage that you believe indicates a person can be faked by a bot
[17:35] Tequlia Tapioca: i like to help new real players a bit. i have 3 camps but bots are horrid. used to be fun
[17:35] Velouria Infinity: what is the impact of bots on usage if that is available data?
[17:35] sirhc DeSantis: good question
[17:35] Shanti Sands: I have two alts that have their own businesses that just don't mesh with mine, plus help with land management functions. Blanketing alts as bots is not always accurate
[17:35] Jeska Linden: So I've got a slew of different metrics that you have all suggested would be helpful in determining how your parcel is doing
[17:35] Jeska Linden: (above and beyond today's "traffic")
[17:35] MikeVanMan Dagger: Bots are crap, if you run a sim of bots you have no honor and are not what newcomers in SL should be falsified in beleiving is what SL has to offer, it's cr*p!
[17:35] Ann Otoole: bots can look like anything and if the abuse situation is not solved you can expect the problem to increase at a log rate as everyone joins the bots-in-a-box arms race
[17:36] sirhc DeSantis: ann thats a bit strong
[17:36] Musique Gable: It's not traffic that is broken and/or the amount of popular places, its the amount of bots allowed in SL
[17:36] Melissa Venera accepted your inventory offer.
[17:36] Martin Magpie: I see her point.
[17:36] Beithe Mills: Agree with that one Ann.......we have 14 just to keep us afloat.....
[17:36] Velouria Infinity: there's also the fact that experinced users make up their opinon on parcels/islands using bots, that's valuable and we all can judge as we do everyday
[17:36] Tequlia Tapioca: yes
[17:36] Tequlia Tapioca: good idea
[17:36] Argos Hawks: Ann is right, but if you limit traffic to a single PIOF account per person, the problem is solved
[17:37] Jeska Linden: So stepping back into brainstorming land for a minute...
[17:37] MikeVanMan Dagger: if you (LL) were to say 10 days free trail accounts are on again and for any bots you want to keep to aditional members, pay $1.00 extra per month even, think of the possibilities on your end and the slews of dead accounts that would pop up....I say go with that
[17:37] Jeska Linden: We talked a bit about what types of metrics would help you understand more of what is happening on your individual parcels.
[17:37] Lee Lindman: Argos - I like your idea
[17:37] Aliester Enoch: Argos - how will you tell?
[17:37] Argos Hawks: you can't get a PIOF account without giving up your CC info. that includes a name and address
[17:38] Tequlia Tapioca: well is there metrics i can look at over the last 24 hours that shows my technical performance
[17:38] Martin Magpie: I could see how a bot could be useful to answer questions and such. But is that really in LL best interest for me to have a free account and use a bot to do business? I don't think that would do my business much good; no personal touch. As far as not good for LL " I walked around all day, shopping and looking at kewl places; unfortunatly I couldn't find one real person to talk to" Don't think it can't happen.
[17:38] Argos Hawks: you can't fake it without committing real life fraus
[17:38] sirhc DeSantis: Jeska - metrics generated by visitors
[17:38] Argos Hawks: fraud
[17:38] Jeska Linden: Which of those metrics, if any, would you want to view publically?
[17:38] Original Prim: Bots are very small programs which only utilize a small part of the protocol, they'd find it very difficult to respond to any verification of visual data because they typically disgard it all.
[17:38] Aliester Enoch: Argos - and people will
[17:38] Darien Caldwell: yes Martin. Bots aren't as desirable as real people :)
[17:38] sirhc DeSantis: all of them
[17:38] Tequlia Tapioca: spikes and highest usage scripts
[17:38] Jeska Linden: and/or be used to help with search relevance (as traffic does with the places tab currently)
[17:38] Tequlia Tapioca: at the time
[17:38] Musique Gable: I don't know if I would want any of them viewed publicly
[17:38] Argos Hawks: then those people can be reported to the RL authorities
[17:39] Tequlia Tapioca: who was wearing it
[17:39] Tim Gagliano: Jeska
[17:39] Tim Gagliano: How about TPs in?
[17:39] sirhc DeSantis: gather the data first then mine it to see what works
[17:39] Beithe Mills: i would not have a problem if all the metrics were public
[17:39] Musique Gable: for my own personal use...if they see the keyword PLANT works for SIM A.....and then they start using it
[17:39] Velouria Infinity: jeska, only traffic data that makes sense to business is PUBLIC data and resident's generated data is inevitably mangled or subjected to gaming
[17:39] Musique Gable: that opens a whole can of worms
[17:39] Shanti Sands: publically as in to the general public - or to the landholders
[17:39] Shanti Sands: ?
[17:39] Musique Gable: I'd want it for my personal use, not public consumption
[17:39] MikeVanMan Dagger: RL authorites? That's a bit extreme, and which county form of execution of the law should we use, USA? as is always the law over everyones SL experience?
[17:39] Jeska Linden: Currently traffic is a publically used metric to help determine relevance
[17:39] Darien Caldwell: as long as the metrics aren't associated with any individual Avatar, I see no problem with any of them being public.
[17:39] sirhc DeSantis: kk so - split between profit/np locations
[17:40] Velouria Infinity: we need sorta what we have, the whole economy is tied to clean (if gamed) public data
[17:40] Tim Gagliano: ok
[17:40] Jeska Linden: It's also the only number provided to you from Linden Lab about how your business is doing.
[17:40] Tequlia Tapioca: bad for relevence really here
[17:40] Ann Otoole: anyone makes a bot that randomly travels the grid buying stuff at random is a hero. otherwise bots add very little to SL until we can develop serious NPCs. and i'm hoping the future of scripting helps. so all bots are not evil. well unless programmed as an evil NPC anyway.
[17:40] Tim Gagliano: Yes.. but what if we added Teleports in to a parcel/sim?
[17:40] sirhc DeSantis: that b word again
[17:40] Velouria Infinity: thst is why I am not for suppression of traffic, that's a bad move if ever will be implemented
[17:40] Argos Hawks: the authorities that cover the place where the fraud was committed. credit card fraud is a serious RL crime. I doubt many will commit RL fraud to get a few extra traffic points.
[17:41] Martin Magpie: I don't want to see an end of traffic, I would however like to see it removed as a part of search.
[17:41] Jeska Linden: Velouria / Martin - can you both explain your views?
[17:41] Aliester Enoch: I think traffic should stay as it is and in search
[17:41] Velouria Infinity: most of our clients are in stand-by mode on this very topic
[17:41] Shanti Sands: that is a weak way to know how your business is doing , traffic alone - i would be interested in seeing traffic as a land management figure amongst other data such as keywords utilized, whether they got there from search or LM - whether it was a return visit etc.
[17:41] Jeska Linden: I'm curious to hear more about them, since they seem simiilar and yet very different.
[17:41] Musique Gable: I disagree with that...Martin sorry. Again, I use PLACES in search more than I do classifieds
[17:42] sirhc DeSantis: how about word of mouth?
[17:42] Musique Gable: The good places are going to get good traffic regardless of bots...and you can tell once you land on the sim
[17:42] Velouria Infinity: PLACES is the engine of this economy and a generator of transactions, i agree totally
[17:42] Dirk Talamasca: word of mouth is good if you happen to speak the same language but SL is a global community
[17:42] Orion Shamroy: If a number is needed for search ranking, why not two figures? A total number of _unique_ visits per month and an average of monthly totals?
[17:42] Darien Caldwell: only because Places is the only 'free' classified.
[17:42] sirhc DeSantis: mais oui
[17:43] Velouria Infinity: WOM does not work in a place this big Dirk, realize it please
[17:43] Velouria Infinity: that's a boutique economy
[17:43] Blue67 Fairlane: i agree with orion
[17:43] Martin Magpie: Traffic is gamed always has been, I don't think its in anyones best interest to see XXX on the top of the search pile even when looking for "a puppy". When you have traffic as part of search your search then becomes a fight to be #1. If it was removed then ppl would have the oppertunity to find what they are looking for. Instead of every store using key words to get traffic falsely.
[17:43] Argos Hawks: unique visits is easier to game than traffic and harder on the servers as people keep cycling their bots through the TPs
[17:43] Jeska Linden: Orion/ Blue - tell us more?
[17:43] Musique Gable: You have some sims who cater to a newbie...for example. I offer freebies to lure in new people and hopefully people who come back to visit
[17:43] Aliester Enoch: traffic isn't the problem its the keywords, anyone can put anything in, like Martin said
[17:44] Darien Caldwell: Orion, i don't see how that would be any different than what we have now.
[17:44] Velouria Infinity: in the group we proposed tag limitation
[17:44] Blue67 Fairlane: why use just one figure, use several and possibly average them?
[17:44] Aliester Enoch: search will never be relevant as long as anyone can just make up anything to show up for
[17:44] sirhc DeSantis: so categories - defined ones?
[17:44] Jeska Linden: Aliester - Agree, there should be less keywords to allow for better bidding
[17:44] Beithe Mills: There is a lot of false keywords in some areas, that is not as bad as the traffic issue for us.......the keywords tend to backfire, places that do that a lot get customers mad
[17:44] Velouria Infinity: Aliester SEACH is relevant
[17:44] Aliester Enoch: Yes!
[17:44] Martin Magpie: Also I am sure that X rated is not the very first thing you want the ppl to think SL is when they log in for the first time.
[17:44] Argos Hawks: any search where we are talking about keywords and tags is not the search we came here to talk about
[17:44] Musique Gable: I don't think there is enough keywords as it is...to desribe my sim
[17:44] Aliester Enoch: Velouria - which search are you using?
[17:44] Original Prim: I rely on traffic figures when searching. If I'm looking for a particular type of store, high traffic usually equates with better quality products. It's virtually unheard of for a store with quality products to have no traffic. This isn't always true for non-commercial locations, however.
[17:44] Orion Shamroy: Well, mainly model the whole thing after a web counter. Simple and easy. What we have now is some sort of jumbled magic number kind of system. There are just too many factors to even know whats being counted.
[17:45] Musique Gable: I agree Original
[17:45] MikeVanMan Dagger: Sadly too Jeska, with the announcement of daily traffic or popular places coming to an end, both will bring a major dive in mainland prices, which could and would be bad business for LL........we need to invent something other for people to do in sl other then camop, shop and have sex.....need more carnivals, more art shows, more ways of showing what SL really should be, heck even more palces for people to fire up their guns(yes orbit still exists you didnt break them all), and those places should be abuse report free, if you're there, fire at will, (getting off course there..sorry), but you really need to go back to some of the old ways of SL indeed
[17:45] Harvey Swenson: keywords is already limited by description and parcel size though jeska, it can only be gamed so far, including puppy as a box title and having 50k in traffic is what pushes it to the top
[17:45] Velouria Infinity: customers rely on PLACES, not ALL, to effectively shop and it is effective, want to put in on a POOL?
[17:45] Beithe Mills: Oh, and fix the dance/dancer/dancing problem....where each search list is totally different, hehehe
[17:45] Aliester Enoch: I agree with Original also
[17:45] Darien Caldwell: Thats kind of the original Intent, Orion, to make it so you don't know what's being counted, to keep from gaming it.
[17:45] Darien Caldwell: however it's failed now :)
[17:45] Musique Gable: I noticed the showcases only had clothes shopping, corporate sims. There is no category for my sim ...I sell furniture
[17:46] sirhc DeSantis: darien has a point
[17:46] Martin Magpie: I would suggest a search in alphabetical order it wouldn't have any relivence to name your store 111AAA mart.
[17:46] Velouria Infinity: we also proposed in the group to make Showcase more granular
[17:46] Musique Gable: I don't agree with alphabetical order
[17:46] Shanti Sands: different sorts of sims/businesses will have different factors that make it a sucess or not - a club or RP sim will matter more with traffic numbers - a small 512 selling assorting goods to get off the ground has no interest in numbers, they just want the opportunity to be found in search and not swallowed
[17:46] Beithe Mills: the older search was alphabetical.........ended up with everyone with all spaces as parcel name
[17:46] Martin Magpie: it was just a suggestion, I am sure there is a much better way to do it within the LL code.
[17:46] sirhc DeSantis: no we are trying to find a traffic replacement
[17:46] Velouria Infinity: I'm sorry, am I spamming? Sorry abou that but this is pretty wild I am afraid
[17:46] Argos Hawks: Alphabetical would be infinitely worse than what we've got already
[17:46] Musique Gable: I agree Argos
[17:47] sirhc DeSantis: with argos
[17:47] Martin Magpie: like i said it was a basic suggestion
[17:47] Jeska Linden: Musique - there are subcategories for the Showcase, including "Home Furnishings".. but I agree there could be more!
[17:47] sirhc DeSantis: erm - like what? yiffing encouraged?
[17:47] Velouria Infinity: fltering on the showacase was very appreciated thru the group
[17:47] Musique Gable: that would be nice, but I noticed right away in Showcases, I'm shut out, UNLESS I get in a HOT SPOT
[17:47] Tequlia Tapioca: home furnishings or clothing is too generic possibly
[17:47] Jeska Linden: Sorry, trying to keep up :)
[17:48] Tim Gagliano: Showcase is good for CSI, Tmobile and CNN... but what about the little guy/girl? is this a money driven venture?
[17:48] Katt Linden: probably not that one sirhc
[17:48] Tequlia Tapioca: or high level i mean
[17:48] Jeska Linden: I'd like for the Showcase to continue to grow over time, if it's proven to be helpful
[17:48] Musique Gable: I agree Tim
[17:48] Musique Gable: Again, I'm weary of showcasing, especially if its left up to the Lindens to decide. No offense
[17:48] Martin Magpie: right if we have more detailed drop downs that would certainly help; Clothes > shirts, pant, shoes... Shoes> mens, womens... Color> black, blue, pink polka dot (you get the idea
[17:48] Tequlia Tapioca: its not available for most of us today at all
[17:48] Ann Otoole: jeska, i asked a pre question in my rsvp. whay are the categories on classifieds we pay for not present on the new all search. specifically why isnt shopping category an option in the new search?
[17:48] Jeska Linden: If not, back to the drawing board. I believe it's better than the POpular Places metaphor
[17:48] Beithe Mills: I just worry that it will end up with an underground of places that will never get into showcase
[17:48] Velouria Infinity: sex, BDSM and such will never have a place in the Showacase... while I love this I wonder... how much of the economy is just that?
[17:48] Tim Gagliano: that is why i want to see traffic stay, bots be banned and have camping as a flag...
[17:49] Musique Gable: Get rid of the bots and Popular Places and traffic wouldn't be a problem
[17:49] Darien Caldwell: I think traffic should be eliminated as a factor in search, then bots no longer matter. Businesses will have to invest in marketing and classifieds, just as in Real LIfe. It's the only reasonable way that I can see.
[17:49] Tequlia Tapioca: well not in pg like classifieds at least
[17:49] Original Prim: The showcase would be beneficial to some, but with many thousands of deserving locations out there it could become as cluttered as Search is.
[17:49] Velouria Infinity: darien you are shooting for economic suicide
[17:49] Jeska Linden: Ann - the basic answer is that google doesn't do categories well. At some point in the future, after search flagging and the traffic reworking, I'd like to see an improved classifieds system built as well. But that's further out (maybe by the end of the year?)
[17:49] Ann Otoole: nothing stopping anyone from opening a non LL showcase on the web to cover stuff LL could not possibly cover.
[17:49] Martin Magpie: and please give XXX and Camps their own tabs
[17:49] Musique Gable: I disagree, i work hard to get traffic, throw events, put things on my island for peolple to enjoy, so they stay a while
[17:49] Argos Hawks: But traffic based searching is what works best for hangout type places where you are trying to find people
[17:49] MikeVanMan Dagger: I'm sure Neva Naughty, Black Ops and Panda will be featured heavily, sad but true, many of the main creators have alot of sway on mid and a major effect on any new coming up stores
[17:49] Lee Lindman: If showcases eventually allows user submission with digg-esque voting like you mentioned earlier Jeska I think that would be a good non-traffic metric based way to show some of the cooler places in SL
[17:49] Ann Otoole: thanks Jeska. been real curious on that category thing
[17:50] Tim Gagliano: cause doing away with traffic is gonna generate alot of ghost towns.. you can kiss the nightclubs good bye who rely on the traffic rankings
[17:50] Darien Caldwell: No, it works in Real life, why wouldn't it work here?
[17:50] sirhc DeSantis: well - with lee on that
[17:50] Musique Gable: Right....events in general will drop
[17:50] MikeVanMan Dagger: so give XXX its own tab, should we give conservative christian s their own too?, genres are good
[17:50] Jeska Linden: Then we can have another set of ocnversations around how to improve classifieds ;)
[17:50] Lee Lindman: but I still think traffic metrics themselves are critical for parcel owners
[17:50] Shanti Sands: a random feature would be cool - not as a replacement but as a random per category perhaps
[17:50] Tequlia Tapioca: oh yes it does. its the use of the engines tools. its a big job mind. and i wouldnt expect Linden to be web google
[17:50] Argos Hawks: Lee, that would just be the same voting system that has failed before.
[17:51] Jeska Linden: Lee - I agree, metrics help you determine if what you're doing is successful :)
[17:51] Tequlia Tapioca: yes
[17:51] Jeska Linden: Telling parcel / estate owners what is happening on their land is key.
[17:51] Darien Caldwell: of course, metrics are key
[17:51] Musique Gable: Again, the common factor here is BOTS are gaming the system and will continue to unless you put a stop to them. It's killing the grid not just in resources but all over
[17:51] Jeska Linden: Better metrics is something we've wanted for a long time.
[17:51] Darien Caldwell: they give you direction on how to market :)
[17:52] Tequlia Tapioca: but how to stop the cheats is the bigger question.
[17:52] Tequlia Tapioca: manythings that would please us
[17:52] Tequlia Tapioca: will be cheated
[17:52] Shanti Sands: My education is in marketing/advertising so i really DO want to know the numbers to see what is working i just think that for many businesses, traffic rank should not influence exposure solely ( not including perhaps clubs and the like)
[17:52] MikeVanMan Dagger: we've tossed enuff ideas on how to fix or end bots
[17:52] Aliester Enoch: Musique, do you have proof that bots take up a lot of resources even? or are you just assuming that?
[17:52] Martin Magpie: I own both a mainland sim and an estate and I can tell you traffic doesn't help or hurt. It's nothing more than a web counter. "Refresh" anyone.
[17:52] Velouria Infinity: darien, this economy is closed, sprawled, you just need a metric for relevance, taken out the gamed spot, lool, I have my problems agreeing with people like Prokofy on this matter but it's true... not only that but all economic traffic is interwined, you won't keep having a business if the big guys fall and disappear. I urge all to be cautious on engaging on the no-traffic option because that is precisely what we DO NOT NEED
[17:52] MikeVanMan Dagger kics can around room
[17:52] Musique Gable: I'm all for that Shanti. I love the marketing part of SL myself
[17:52] Darien Caldwell: i agree martin
[17:52] Martin Magpie: sorry my alt does
[17:52] Original Prim: Do people ever find traffic difficult to read? The figure isn't representative of actual foot traffic, it's merely the total figure that's calculated at the end of the day and could be the same for two very different traffic patterns.
[17:52] Harvey Swenson: there is proof aliester
[17:52] Beithe Mills: i know it true on our isle, it is noticable with just 14
[17:53] Tequlia Tapioca: well yes Orignal
[17:53] Tequlia Tapioca: almost 4 years and yes
[17:53] Jeska Linden: nods
[17:53] Ann Otoole: stick an account on a parcfel for 24 hours and the traffic is 1440. the number of minutes in a day. me thinks the "complex formula" got replaced by a simple counter somewhere along the way.
[17:53] Shanti Sands: Its valuable, but as a feature to be utilized for analysis not to exclude the little people - upand coming businesses getting exposure also forces the big names to remain fresh, which can revitalize the community as well
[17:53] Tequlia Tapioca: and i am smart k
[17:53] Jeska Linden: So having better numbers to look at would definitely help to determine things like what time of day your store is busiest, how many avatars visit for the first time vs. repeat, etc
[17:54] Jeska Linden: (note still brainstorming here, not sure which of these numbers are possible yet!)
[17:54] Aliester Enoch: Right on Ann, the complex formula is a joke
[17:54] Tequlia Tapioca: what we did to accomplish.
[17:54] Harvey Swenson: and what they do when they get there Jeska would be good if possible
[17:54] Darien Caldwell: yes Jeska
[17:54] Velouria Infinity: it would Jeska, as it does presently I believe
[17:54] Tim Gagliano: Jeska.. Add TPs in ... to that equasion... that should help
[17:54] Argos Hawks: Jeska, those would be great, but that sounds like a nightmare for an already overtaxed system to track.
[17:54] Shanti Sands: Yes Jeska, for sure.
[17:54] Tequlia Tapioca: my traffic is 8k to 10k and some days i have my 3 campers and some not
[17:54] Jeska Linden: It would have to be on another db that's for sure :)
[17:54] Ann Otoole: sure jeska but what would help more is an end to traffic falsification unless it is decoupled from search and traffic bots become irrelevant
[17:54] Shanti Sands: lol i would hope :)
[17:54] Jeska Linden: And could probably be something you could 'save out'
[17:54] Jeska Linden: Maybe export to various formats.
[17:54] Tequlia Tapioca: but my campers do not make it higher normally
[17:55] Shanti Sands: oh that would be great!
[17:55] Velouria Infinity: absolutely jeska
[17:55] Darien Caldwell: like transactions
[17:55] Lee Lindman: Jeska - it would be nice if traffic was gathered by the viewer and sent to a external db
[17:55] Tim Gagliano: because you cannot tp in a bot (dont think you can...)
[17:55] Martin Magpie: so 1440 x5 alts kewl guess my traffic will be 7200 in the morning. Gaming the system.
[17:55] Jeska Linden: Ann - I think the first step is finding better metrics for parcel owners then figure out which metrics provides additional relevance for search
[17:55] Tequlia Tapioca: :)
[17:55] Lee Lindman: then other worlds like opensim could also be part of the traffic data collection
[17:55] Shanti Sands: yes like transactions that would be fantastic!
[17:55] MikeVanMan Dagger: what they do, everything from light a nuke in your shop, you view a vendor, talk smack, advertise or their own store with a similar product, how does this help? Why be the big brother of SL, heck, why buy in world with that look over the sholder nonsense, buy off slx
[17:56] Velouria Infinity: aha. Lee, you go SOOOO far :))
[17:56] Original Prim: More choice rather than less is ideal. Traffic could be retained, but available as an sorting option, depending on personal preference.
[17:56] Lee Lindman: always thinking ahead :)
[17:56] Jeska Linden: Lee with the 50,000 foot vision ;)
[17:56] Velouria Infinity: :))
[17:56] Argos Hawks: Transactions could be a great bit of info for the landowner, but another terrible idea to put into the search algorithm. Again, too easy to fake.
[17:56] Tequlia Tapioca: yes
[17:56] MikeVanMan Dagger forms I love Lee group, charges 500L join fee and pays for campers for next 3 weeeks
[17:56] Jeska Linden: Oh! While we're talking about metrics - what other kinds of metrics would you like about classifieds?
[17:56] Shanti Sands: agreed
[17:57] Jeska Linden: Right now I think we give number of teleports, number of profile opened and number of views
[17:57] Jeska Linden: ?
[17:57] Tim Gagliano shouts: take out the pay per rank!
[17:57] Tim Gagliano: oops
[17:57] Tim Gagliano: sorry for the shout
[17:57] Tequlia Tapioca: well ones that are consistant
[17:57] Tim Gagliano: Hahahahahahahaha
[17:57] Jeska Linden: hehe
[17:57] Tequlia Tapioca: i have repeating ads and weekly
[17:57] Darien Caldwell: i'd like to know how many views that *didn't* TP
[17:57] Velouria Infinity: roads, finishe them and place the proper ads on them
[17:57] Martin Magpie: I honestly wonder what the advantage of reworking a broken system is.
[17:57] Tequlia Tapioca: and man thats hard to follow
[17:57] Harvey Swenson: being able to change the price on classifieds would be good
[17:57] Tequlia Tapioca: when you take my money a flash to the next traffic
[17:57] Shanti Sands: what about a *hot* area - for instance that weeks classifieds that drew TPs and not just big buck spenders - may be different
[17:58] Jeska Linden: Tequlia - so a system to track campaigns?
[17:58] Tequlia Tapioca: does not do it
[17:58] Original Prim: Possibly to track how long the classified was on screen for, to see if it was actually read?
[17:58] Tequlia Tapioca: yes
[17:58] Jeska Linden: ie: I ran ads a/b/c for 2/4/6 weeks etc
[17:58] Musique Gable: YOu can still game that Shanti...with bots
[17:58] Tequlia Tapioca: you do sort of i think
[17:58] Velouria Infinity: make classified accessible on the territory, just as in RL
[17:58] Shanti Sands: True
[17:58] Tequlia Tapioca: but it flashes so fast
[17:58] Tequlia Tapioca: i am not always so alert
[17:58] Shanti Sands: Darn you Musique lol :D but you are right.
[17:58] Tequlia Tapioca: and i am quick
[17:58] Musique Gable: hehe
[17:58] Jeska Linden: :)
[17:59] Original Prim: the keyword(s) which lead to it being discovered
[18:00] Jeska Linden: Thanks everyone again for the conversation
FYI MY TRAFFIC FOR LAST NIGHT WAS 72 NOT 7200 AS WAS DISCUSSED ABOVE. THAT IS THE LOWEST MY TRAFFIC HAS BEEN IN FOREVER. COINCIDENCE? I AM TO JADED TO THINK IT WAS.
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