Tuesday, May 6, 2008

LL Future Traffic Chat Log

Jeska Linden: First, I'd like to thank you all for coming to the meeting today and for having such thoughtful discussions in the group chat.
[17:00] Jeska Linden: Now then, I'd like to distribute our chat log to the group after the meeting, is anyone not ok with that?
[17:01] Jeska Linden: (usually easier than asking who IS ok ;)
[17:01] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:01] Velouria Infinity: okeys chat proliferation
[17:01] MikeVanMan Dagger: ^^
[17:01] Musique Gable grins
[17:01] Jeska Linden: Excellent!
[17:02] Jeska Linden: Ok, we've got an hour here to brainstorm - gather thoughts and ideas - and I'd like for us to cover three different things today, but don't worry I'll push us along if we get caught up in one thing too long.
[17:02] Jeska Linden: flexes her old-school moderator muscles
[17:02] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:02] Musique Gable nods
[17:02] Martin Magpie: haha nice
[17:02] Jeska Linden: The three things I'd like for us to cover include: Showcase replacing Popular Places in the viewer, parcel metrics, and the future of traffic.
[17:03] Jeska Linden: First, briefly, some background.
[17:03] Jeska Linden: I'm sure you all saw in the initial blog post -
[17:03] Jeska Linden: http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/04/28/second-life-showcase-popular-places-and-the-future-of-traffic/
[17:03] Musique Gable: Yes
[17:03] Tequlia Tapioca: nope but i will
[17:03] Velouria Infinity: yes
[17:03] MikeVanMan Dagger: nods
[17:03] Martin Magpie nods
[17:03] Jeska Linden: We're planning on replacing the Popular Places tab content with content pulled from the Showcase on the Second Life Web site with the next Release Candidate
[17:04] Jeska Linden: Anticipating that this would bring up much conversation around traffic and metrics, we wanted to open the conversation up to the community (hence the group and these meetings).
[17:04] Jeska Linden: Let's start with Popular Places...
[17:04] Musique Gable: Okay.
[17:04] Jeska Linden: I'd like to make sure everyone is aware why we are making this switch over -
[17:05] Jeska Linden: then we can take any questions and move to the meatier issue of metrics and traffic :)
[17:05] Velouria Infinity: traffic gaming being key, correct?
[17:05] Jeska Linden: The Popular Places tab was started a long time ago, when the world of Second Life was much, much smaller in all meanings of the word.
[17:05] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:05] Jeska Linden: Velouria - we can spend some time talking about gaming in a few..
[17:05] Velouria Infinity: kk
[17:06] Jeska Linden: It only lists 20 parcels with the highest "traffic" numbers. t that time it was also tied to a "traffice incentive" where LL paid the people who had the most traffic (which has not been done for some time but used to be my job for awhile ;)
[17:06] Jeska Linden: The Showcase is something a bit different - it's been on the SL Website for the last few months and highlights various inworld locations which have interesting content, activities, or experiences.
[17:06] Musique Gable: My only problem I see with Showcases thus far is I'd hate to see favoritism come into play. How are places shown in Showcases going to be determined?
[17:06] Jeska Linden: The hope is that Showcase will allow quality venues to get listed without having the pressure of keeping traffic high and help allow the depth of experiences in Second Life to come to the surface of Search.
[17:07] Jeska Linden: We also have plans to add a method in the future (we're getting feedback on the proposed design currently), which includes a way for Residents to nominate things for Showcase from inworld.
[17:07] Jeska Linden: I'd like to take a few minutes to get your thoughts and feedback on this and take any suggestions on this change before moving on to the next topic (metrics!).
[17:07] Jeska Linden: Musique - we can start with that
[17:07] Martin Magpie: Is Showcase a done deal or is that still up for discussion?
[17:07] Jeska Linden: Martin - the Showcase switch is pretty much done (I believe the code was checked in today) but we can still make changes to the html
[17:08] Tequlia Tapioca: well its fairer to have residence vote but bots can vote alot
[17:08] Musique Gable: exactly Tequila
[17:08] Jeska Linden: And as the program grows (and is hopefully successful) we may be able to add more Linden staff to do more things with it
[17:08] Destiny Niles: at welcome areas and infohubs there are kioskos that gives landmarks - will those be utillzied also?
[17:08] Carla Chandrayaan: it's a done deal. they're ust deciding how to select featured places or whether/how to allow residents to nimonate places for it
[17:08] Martin Magpie: bots voting is also a worry for me.
[17:08] MikeVanMan Dagger: Good point Destiny
[17:08] Jeska Linden: There is another project underway to rework landmarks, which has had some discussion on the SL Dev list I believe.
[17:08] Velouria Infinity: Showcase may be good for LL and in a limited form for businesses new to SL which see a polished and more interesting venue as to why be here and what risk their brand is taking
[17:09] Jeska Linden: nods
[17:09] Velouria Infinity: but obvously risks for favorits sky very high and we can not
[17:09] Velouria Infinity: hide they are there
[17:09] MikeVanMan Dagger: Hubs can be used MUCH better then what they're used for nowadays, which is more like a drinking cooler for old early dwellers for which said hub rests upon
[17:09] Jeska Linden: I'm also taking suggestions and other feedback back to the Showcase team (the very, very small Showcase Editorial team)
[17:09] Velouria Infinity: is natural
[17:09] Lee Lindman: So showcase will be driven solely by a manual voting process ?
[17:09] Carla Chandrayaan: I don't really anticipate the showcase 'helping' businesses in SL. But doing away with the rigged numbers for popular places might
[17:09] Tequlia Tapioca: :) team of 1
[17:09] Velouria Infinity: suspicion is running very very high about it
[17:09] Ann Otoole: How is this system not going to remain basically what the fashion page is where LL decides who will be a top successful fashion store? I.e.; are you going to get out of the business of favoring certain account or will LL begin taking pay for positiong on the showcase? And how will LL prevent gaming of this? comes right around to the question of exactly how many access accounts are allowed per unique person, per household, per IP address.
[17:10] Velouria Infinity: but also this seems to be open to further gaming
[17:10] Velouria Infinity: from the resi's side
[17:10] Jeska Linden: Currently the Showcase is an editorialized list chosen by several people, but in the future (hopefully sooner rather than later) there will be an easier way to nominate things for th list from inside the viewer.
[17:10] MikeVanMan Dagger: There should be incentives to great locations that continue to reface their store with new products and a fresh look. These are places that could maybe be labeled as ACTIVE, where as within the last 30-45 days this location has been updated and is fresh. Maybe have a color system, green as fresh content, yellow (60-90 days) and red (120+ days), since last updated.
[17:11] Velouria Infinity: jacek Antonelli proposed something about incentivating/de-incentivating rating from resis
[17:11] Velouria Infinity: albeit complicated
[17:11] Tequlia Tapioca: good old days
[17:11] Beithe Mills: resis?
[17:11] Velouria Infinity: residents
[17:11] Jeska Linden: resis/residents? :)
[17:11] Jeska Linden: Torley-ism?
[17:11] Beithe Mills: ah
[17:11] Velouria Infinity: was there such a system in place in the past?
[17:12] Tequlia Tapioca: for us
[17:12] Tequlia Tapioca: avatar rates
[17:12] Ann Otoole: What is to stop one store owner from asking 10,000 customers to go to a competitor and flagging for content abuse while recommending that designer's store for showcase. its impossible and will be gamed.
[17:12] Velouria Infinity: Ann poses the problem we see
[17:12] Beithe Mills: but that would be easily spotted Ann
[17:12] Jeska Linden: Ann - We can speak a bit about the search flagging proposal if you'd like, but I'd rather focus in on the traffic issues for this meeting.
[17:12] sirhc DeSantis: ann all systems will be gamed
[17:13] Original Prim: Impartiality is an issue in Linden selected picks too, as many Lindens are successful business owners themselves.
[17:13] Jeska Linden: We've been speaking with several groups with an early (super early) proposal for search flagging.
[17:13] Darien Caldwell: how many stores have 10,000 customers willing to be dishonest? it's rather a silly notion.
[17:13] Harvey Swenson: why isnt the showcase just a random selection of nominated places? once they're vetted then just display them randomly?
[17:13] Ann Otoole: no it wouldnt. besides, who will police it? LL hasn't the staff for that. And what would LL do? delete the scammer accounts?
[17:13] Beithe Mills: and 10,000 customers without one that would report it......
[17:14] Argos Hawks: it wouldn't take 10,000. may not even take 10.
[17:14] Musique Gable: someone can make 10,000 alts, not impossible....stranger things have happened in SL
[17:14] Jeska Linden: Did anyone else have suggestions on how to improve the Showcase or any other questions on the removal of POpular places?
[17:14] Tequlia Tapioca: its a hard question and why you are here now
[17:14] Martin Magpie: Generally speaking any improvement to the current search is much needed not just for the residents but also for LL. I am glad to hear that the list is checked by more than one person. I still have concerns that a it will become another popularity contest and it's not about what you do; more of who you know.
[17:14] Argos Hawks: Don't include stores in the Showcase.
[17:14] MikeVanMan Dagger: popular places could have tabs at the very least
[17:14] Velouria Infinity: if we remove pop places what incentives bots have still to clog those high places?
[17:14] Musique Gable: I say put Popular Places in the residents hads.....as we ARE what make SL, SL
[17:14] Tequlia Tapioca: bots and abuses are hard to deal with
[17:15] Tim Gagliano: Can I ask a question of a Linden?
[17:15] Ann Otoole: ratings were gamed. ratings were removed. nobody got hurt. SL doesnt need voting for popularity systems. i agree reporting content clearly in violation of the CS/TOS is needed and there is an AR system now although it may need governance over the governance team
[17:15] Velouria Infinity: then ban bots in the TOS
[17:15] Dirk Talamasca: New residents are not allowed to place a vote
[17:15] Original Prim: Resident nomination does sound promising and I'm confident you can find ways to lessen gaming
[17:15] Shanti Sands: anything with resident voting to me is asking for *easy* bot abuse
[17:15] Jeska Linden: Martin - I understand the concern, my hope is that once we have search flagging in and nominations start rolling in, we can use that data within the Showcase
[17:15] Beithe Mills: What about violent/adult locations, would LL even consider showcasing those.........i do not run one, but content can be an issue on something like the showcase can it not?
[17:15] Tequlia Tapioca: bots are ages old
[17:15] Jeska Linden: Possibly like Digg or Craiglist does
[17:15] Carla Chandrayaan: I agree that it should be a rnadom pick. Unbiased (except possibly against overtly mature themes) of all sim or businesses or adventurous places i Sl
[17:15] Musique Gable: The thing is, there is nothing stopping bots/alts from entering SL...that therein lies the problem
[17:15] Tequlia Tapioca: only paying members gets votes is not right either
[17:16] Velouria Infinity: some even suggest a thirdy party to deliver reviews
[17:16] MikeVanMan Dagger: bots are defnitly a drain on resources, I logged on this monday morning, 56k residents online...where are these people? My friends and I have scoured everywhere.....the answer lies 85 bots jammed in a sky box
[17:16] Tequlia Tapioca: unless all are paying
[17:16] Tim Gagliano: Why do this instead of Enforcing the TOS.... If we Enforced the TOS, Traffic could stay... or.. have a filter to remove the bots/campers... to show REAL traffic
[17:16] Beithe Mills: We arent talking about traffic Yet, A/all
[17:16] sirhc DeSantis: with tim
[17:16] Velouria Infinity: So I ask, why are bots not a TOS volation or taxed financially with a separate bot account?
[17:16] Musique Gable: I'd be game for that, Tim. When I joined SL, I had to verify my account. I know its unpopular, but would stop all these bots/alts draining SL and gaming areas
[17:16] Argos Hawks: unless you tie the votes to a specific identity, all systems that involve voting are no better than the current traffic system.
[17:16] Darien Caldwell: but I think Traffic is what everyone wants to talk about. :)
[17:16] Jeska Linden: Ok, I've got some good thoughts to take back to the Showcase team, let's talk for a minute about metrics
[17:16] Jeska Linden: :)
[17:16] MikeVanMan Dagger: yes
[17:17] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:17] Harvey Swenson: I'd still prefer the shocase to be random rather than a list edited by the lindens
[17:17] Martin Magpie: Other than the obvious flagging as you mentioned how would that be any different than the old green box voting system?
[17:17] Jeska Linden: Currently the only Linden provided metric for your parcel/estate is traffic.
[17:17] Tim Gagliano: ?
[17:17] Beithe Mills: Valid questions were drained out by the crowd
[17:17] MikeVanMan Dagger: metrics/visitors on one parcel should be determined to how much in one sim you own
[17:17] Musique Gable: Jeska, just let them know not to alienate the SL populance with Showcasing...don't take it out of our hands
[17:17] MikeVanMan Dagger: obviously if you own an isle(s), you're in control of that 100%
[17:17] Jeska Linden: Martin - we have actual editorial staff dedicated to it now and more resources to maintain it (not to mention easily update it with html int he viewer)
[17:18] Velouria Infinity: I am confident that LL can EditoriLI
[17:18] Jeska Linden: Traffic is calculated using a complex algorithm and is based on the amount of Residents who visited, and the time spent on that parcel out of their total time inworld that day.
[17:18] sirhc DeSantis: well i only have a little place but i still want to know if its worth keeping
[17:18] Jeska Linden: Let's spend a few minutes brainstorming what other types of things you'd like to know about people who visit your parcel/region.
[17:18] Tequlia Tapioca grins at complex
[17:18] Martin Magpie: I'm familair with meta data.
[17:18] Dirk Talamasca: Should a resident or group or residents work to skew the metrics, what would be the severity of punishment if any?
[17:18] Ann Otoole: if the discussion is now traffic then i would love an answer to the direct question of how many accounts per person are allowed, how many per household, and how many per IP address, and is IP spoofing allowed, and if not then how can LL enforce the rules? If the rules we have observed on the website as to 5 accounts were enforced then why do we see one parcel owner clearly running 50 bots in a box as it is?
[17:18] Jeska Linden: Remember that this could also be tied into advertising campaigns (classifieds/etc) in the future..
[17:18] Velouria Infinity: sorry... LL can editorialize well and polished but until we answer the bot question we won't go far
[17:18] Argos Hawks: Any list of Linden approved stores is always going to be subject to accusations of cronyism, regardless of how well it's done.
[17:18] Tequlia Tapioca: i run neural
[17:18] Darien Caldwell: Id like to know how people found my parcel, by landmark, classifed, places or other method.
[17:18] MikeVanMan Dagger: It is not right for a new resident or one that only wants a small parcel to be forced out of where they are living because a new mall or club feels they have the right to jam them out with bots, campers
[17:19] Musique Gable: I agree Argos...it already leaves a bad taste in my mouth
[17:19] Velouria Infinity: we're stuck with wondering if bots are or not a TOS violation
[17:19] Darien Caldwell: Id also like to know what keywords are most associated with my parcel
[17:19] Musique Gable: that would be helpful, Darien
[17:19] Lee Lindman: I'd like to see Alexa-ish data about my parcel visitors
[17:19] Destiny Niles agrees with Darien
[17:19] Musique Gable: what keywords draw people to your sim
[17:19] sirhc DeSantis: i'd like to know if they come back
[17:19] Original Prim: Kinda like what Ann said, if traffic calculations took unique IP address into account too, do you think it could reduce bot abuse?
[17:19] Lee Lindman: country they came from, the viewer versions
[17:19] Martin Magpie: I do have to say ty for removing popular places if that was the best SL had to offer it wasn't much.
[17:19] Argos Hawks: Jeska, you just mentioned it could be tied to advertising campaigns. Are you suggesting that people buy their way into the Linden approved list?
[17:19] Velouria Infinity: so maybe jeska can give us hints on how to penalize bots?
[17:19] Musique Gable: That what it sounds like
[17:20] Tequlia Tapioca: Bots have some useful purpose to somebody that matters
[17:20] Carla Chandrayaan: Flagging IP adresses would do nothing since anyone can change their IP at any time
[17:20] Shanti Sands: Id like to know main searchterms used to find me on top of Dariens list
[17:20] Tequlia Tapioca: linden maybe themselves
[17:20] Beithe Mills: 1: source they came in by, 2: if they immediatelly tped back out again or moved from the landing 3: age of AV
[17:20] Jeska Linden: Bots aren't currently against the Terms of Service
[17:20] Carla Chandrayaan: but a code written to the hard drive of someone siging up would do it.
[17:20] Velouria Infinity: then bots will stay, just traffic can go down the drain? I do not understand
[17:20] Tim Gagliano: how so?
[17:20] Ann Otoole: i think if the top abusing people clearly running more than the 5 accounts allowed were deleted from sl the rest of the bot runners would stop.
[17:20] Tequlia Tapioca: right but most residence feel they should be
[17:20] Tequlia Tapioca: i have 6
[17:20] Darien Caldwell: The only way to stop the abuse of bots is to make their use less attractive.
[17:20] Tim Gagliano: Arent bots listed as Illegal Alt Accounts?
[17:20] Tequlia Tapioca: i am not an abuser
[17:20] Darien Caldwell: if they give no benefit, people won't use them
[17:21] Velouria Infinity: let's give jeska more room on this.................
[17:21] Jeska Linden: Yeah sorry, I got lost in all the questions there...
[17:21] Dirk Talamasca: I think that is a good odea, Lee... Jeska, information about parcels should be returned to residents in a format that is easily understood and not in cryptic jargon that would require them to track Meta down at office hours.
[17:21] Musique Gable: Why even allow them in the gate to begin with though? They're just nipples it in the bud and you won't have the abuse problems
[17:21] Shanti Sands: the longer you are in world the more oppoortunity to try new things = more alts ( no need for 25 mind you)
[17:21] Tequlia Tapioca: sorry Jeska
[17:21] Musique Gable: damn triggers
[17:21] sirhc DeSantis: if i thought camping/bots would work - but if traffic is gone..
[17:21] Jeska Linden: Let's back up a bit and finish pulling info on what metrics you'd like on your parcel
[17:21] Argos Hawks: are we still talking about showcase, or did it switch?
[17:21] Ann Otoole: i'd just like a yes or no on the 5 accounts allowed or is it really unlimited accounts.
[17:21] MikeVanMan Dagger: There is a few gadgets I've seen, even code I've looked at too to see how it was implemented, where you can plant an antena, and artifically implant 10-99 bots, and with the pull of that one antenna disable all of the bots or any number of them in one key stroke
[17:21] Original Prim: There are legitimate uses of IP cloning, such as universities (vip!), but perhaps organizations who are planning to log in multiple accounts from the same IP could be asked to apply for a special exemption?
[17:21] Jeska Linden: I understand that bots are a topic of concern within the community.
[17:21] Martin Magpie: I did a quick search the other day for residental rentals, i was pointed to a store with over 50k traffic. I clicked on the map 0 avatars. Bots.
[17:21] Musique Gable: As you can see, Jeska. Showcase is a concern for a lot of us....
[17:22] Tequlia Tapioca: well they interfear with all you try to do
[17:22] Darien Caldwell: to repeat what I said earlier, Id like to know how people found my parcel, by landmark, classifed, places or other method. as well Id also like to know what keywords are most associated with my parcel.
[17:22] Jeska Linden: Ann - I believe the Terms of Service say "You may register multiple accounts per identification method only at Linden Lab's sole discretion." it is not limited per the TOS. Historically on the website, we've limited to 5 per "human"
[17:22] Musique Gable seconds Darien
[17:22] Shanti Sands agrees with Darien
[17:22] Jeska Linden: But I'm no laywer ;)
[17:22] Tim Gagliano: Ok
[17:22] Tim Gagliano: but
[17:22] MikeVanMan Dagger: maybe two accounts per credit card is the answer
[17:22] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:22] Tim Gagliano: why go with showcase
[17:22] Dirk Talamasca: Time of Day, Origin of Visitor, Time Spent on Parcel, How the Resident fond the parcel (if known) profile, classified, SLURL etc
[17:23] Velouria Infinity: why not charging bot accounts heavily? if they are declared HUMAN then they are in violation
[17:23] Ann Otoole: ok so unlimited accounts are allowed. we can run 100 bots if we want. (useless as it may be). bots are golden.
[17:23] Darien Caldwell: yes, good ones Dirk
[17:23] Velouria Infinity: are they?
[17:23] sirhc DeSantis: metrics Jeska - an accessible rating to say visitors enjoyed them selves
[17:23] Elizabeth Durnan: So bots are ok, because it makes the current users online look pretty spiffy.
[17:23] Jeska Linden: Thanks Darien
[17:23] Tequlia Tapioca: but that does not work if you allow no payment right?
[17:23] Lee Lindman: we need google analytics for Second Life
[17:23] Beithe Mills: Y'all are stpepping away from the question.......
[17:23] Tim Gagliano: instead of TOS enforcement? and actually ban bots... You cannot tell me that having 90 bots over a club is for anything other then POP list gaming...
[17:23] Musique Gable: The problem we all seem to have its bots...it strains LL resources and is gaming the system. Lets get rid of the bots
[17:23] Velouria Infinity: I believe you should declare a bot account and be taxed heavily for it or incur in banning
[17:24] Destiny Niles: can we get off bots. they been around as long as SL™ and will be around
[17:24] Martin Magpie nods at Tim
[17:24] Lee Lindman: Destiny - agreed
[17:24] Tequlia Tapioca: well they activate their bot script logging but they would write a new script
[17:24] sirhc DeSantis: a universal across the board rating system
[17:24] Jeska Linden: Ok, I've heard a lot of people asking for unique, which is the industry standard for web metrics...
[17:24] Ann Otoole: ok so now the issue of traffic abuse to raise relevance. since unlimited accounts are allowed then traffic needs to be decoupled from anything that raises relevance at all since traffic is a totally bogus number. because bots are allowed. fine with me. decouple traffic from anything other than the parcel traffic mesure. problem solved.
[17:25] Argos Hawks: If we only count traffic from accounts tied to an actual human identity (PIOF), and only count one avatar per human at any time, bot running for traffic purposes dies.
[17:25] Musique Gable: that's not a bad idea, Argos
[17:25] MikeVanMan Dagger: I have a few alt accounts I use for scripting/building....and if and when I log them on in my store it's for modeling my gadgets, a new gun, etc, and this I feel is good use of "botting", and I could care less about traffic with popular places and all
[17:25] Jeska Linden: Unique?
[17:25] Carla Chandrayaan: Jeska, just a thought, but I'd sure like to see folks have the ability to 'connect' conneted sims that they won and make all their info one and the ame
[17:25] Jeska Linden: Repeat?
[17:25] Carla Chandrayaan: same*
[17:25] Musique Gable: I agree with Carla on that as well
[17:25] Orion Shamroy: Unique does seem logical. Rather than some voodoo hocus pocus algorithm that accounts for too many things and winds up giving us some mysterious number that has no comprehendable meaning...
[17:25] Jeska Linden: I'm not sure what you mean Carla, explain?
[17:26] Carla Chandrayaan: err own not won... lol I paid through the nose for mine lol
[17:26] Musique Gable: if you own two sims, they have two different traffics
[17:26] Velouria Infinity: guys, we need to moderate ourselves or we are not going anywere, theres like a ton of meat on the fire here
[17:26] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:26] Musique Gable: even though they are connected
[17:26] Jeska Linden: Ok, so you'd like comprehensive metrics or a way to compile metrics for all of your land?
[17:26] Martin Magpie: That makes a lot of sence Carla, less info for the servers to process as well.
[17:26] Velouria Infinity: I see some rosting burgers even :)
[17:26] Beithe Mills: She wants to have people be able to connect all parcels they own as one, under one search entry
[17:26] Velouria Infinity is pausing
[17:26] Destiny Niles: Yes, multisim metrics
[17:26] Carla Chandrayaan: jeska, folks who own multiple sims, if given the ability to make them all count as 'one' with regard to whatever information IS available on them... I just thinkn it would work well
[17:26] Shanti Sands: Basically instead of joining parcels, joining sims under one.
[17:26] sirhc DeSantis: individual - i have different parcels
[17:27] Tequlia Tapioca: oh good idea
[17:27] Carla Chandrayaan: I'm talking about connected sims like mine
[17:27] Dirk Talamasca: I am not really sure that unique has much application here as you can often return to a parcel with friends, or visit several times a day because the parcel has several different events going on in the same day.. If your parcel provides content that persuades visitors to return, you should receive credit for that.
[17:27] Jeska Linden: I believe estates allow that - you can have shared traits on an estate basis
[17:27] sirhc DeSantis: like a meta sim
[17:27] Jeska Linden: So offer metrics on an estate basis as well as region and parcel?
[17:27] Tequlia Tapioca: not rank or traffic
[17:27] Jeska Linden: I'm still talking about metrics :)
[17:27] Destiny Niles: yes Jeska
[17:27] Carla Chandrayaan: From one sim to another? Or just one parcel intersim to another same sim parcel?
[17:27] sirhc DeSantis: well Jeska - lets see what works
[17:27] Darien Caldwell: I don't know that I would want to have traffic combined across multiple sims, different paracels are for different uses, and I'd like to evaluate them based on their own merits. :)
[17:28] Tim Gagliano: Jeska... why go with showcase when all you have to do is ban bots.... make it apart of the TOS like it should be... and as for camping... have a flag setup so that honest SIM owners can be once again apart of the top 20
[17:28] Lee Lindman: Start with parcel metrics, but then offer a way to group all your owned parcels together for a summary of metrics
[17:28] Ann Otoole: lets keep in mind bots are allowed. as many as desired. So now we need to find a we to remove them from relavance. filtering out NIOF may sound good but theres a lot of NPIOFs that are unhappy about their picks not being counted in support of their favorite locations. so to have a voice in sl must we move to payment info on file or used? or just make the jump to premium accounts are the only ones counted?
[17:28] Jeska Linden: Darien - doesn't have to be traffic, I'm thinking more of way to break out metrics for various things - like unique visitors or repeat visitors, etc
[17:28] Musique Gable: I agree, Tim
[17:28] Argos Hawks: We're trying to get away from people gaming traffic. Combining traffic from several sims to be used for a store on one of them would be crazy.
[17:28] Martin Magpie: Jeska why does traffic have to be tied to seach?
[17:28] Darien Caldwell: as long as you can get on a per parcel basis as well
[17:29] Musique Gable: I have to admit as a shopper, I use PlACES in search more than I do classified
[17:29] sirhc DeSantis: Jeska - that would be a step forward
[17:29] Dirk Talamasca: I agree Darien.. That doesn't make much sense. You may as well just count on your own vendors to provide numbers that show whether that parcel is generating sales
[17:29] Carla Chandrayaan: Traffic needs to be tied to search right now. Otherwise, the only thing left is who is willing to pay the most for classifieds
[17:29] Jeska Linden: Martin - I'm not sure it does, but that is kind of the next topic...
[17:29] Tequlia Tapioca: traffics only a small part from what i can gather
[17:29] Musique Gable: I agree, Carla
[17:29] Ann Otoole: tying relevance to an estate will effectively favor anshe chung and the other 2 major land barons. not going to fly.
[17:29] Carla Chandrayaan: And while that may be good for LL, it's not good for residents
[17:29] Jeska Linden: Are there any other metrics that people would like to see on their land?
[17:29] Beithe Mills: What else would search be based on........for those selling hair, who should be listed first if traffic is not used?
[17:29] Martin Magpie: ty :)
[17:29] Tequlia Tapioca: other then places
[17:29] MikeVanMan Dagger: It would benefit LL more in RL $$ with higher dollar classifieds, what do you as a business structure get out of artificially inflated traffic numbers other then big world commerse which has brought more heartache then anything to SL/
[17:29] Tim Gagliano: hmmmm
[17:30] sirhc DeSantis: yes - a universal rating survey
[17:30] Tim Gagliano: well at least someone is not here to shout me down
[17:30] Dirk Talamasca: Age Range and Sex would be nice
[17:30] Jeska Linden: Beithe - that is what we are trying to figure out.
[17:30] Original Prim: I do think it's useful to know how people found your parcel, whether from places search, classifieds, profile pick, slurl from a website, etc
[17:30] Musique Gable: most people lie about that Dirk...what does that matter?
[17:30] Shanti Sands: Information i would like to see as a business tool and things I would like to see used as a menthod for rating search rank are two different things to me
[17:30] Harvey Swenson: click thru's same as every other search engine
[17:30] Argos Hawks: For the About Land window, I'd like to see unique visitors in addition to traffic, but it would be disasterous to rank search by unique visitors. That's easier to game than traffic.
[17:31] Carla Chandrayaan: classifieds already give you results information
[17:31] Ann Otoole: question jeska. you seem to be defecting any conversation about abuse. so is this just a request for additional metric ideas and there will be no consideration of the blatant abuse and falsification going on?
[17:31] Martin Magpie: Dirk I have issues with anyone giving out my personal information. age and sex. that isn't anyones business in sl unless i tell them.
[17:31] Lee Lindman: it'd be nice to have something like a 'bounce' metric. How many people teleported onto your sim and immediately left
[17:31] Dirk Talamasca: Indeed it is Argos
[17:31] Beithe Mills: Yes, sorry was asking that in response to a few calls for disconnecting search and traffic totally
[17:31] Carla Chandrayaan: they tell you how may TP's are made, how many profile views, etc
[17:31] Lee Lindman: or left within a given time range, like 5 seconds
[17:31] Musique Gable: I agree, I don't want to get into sex, age, etc...people aren't truthful about that do begin with
[17:31] Musique Gable: and who cares
[17:31] Original Prim: Lee, that might have to take crashing into account, as that often happens following teleport
[17:31] Destiny Niles: metrics over time would be nice also instead of yesterdays visits
[17:31] Tequlia Tapioca: same sort shows on an ad?
[17:31] Martin Magpie: (or they look at my profile lol)
[17:31] Jeska Linden: Ann - at this point in the design (early) I'm trying to find out what the community wants so we can mock up a proposed design
[17:32] Martin Magpie: but i hope you see my point.
[17:32] Beithe Mills: Ann, that was the third part of the planned talk, relax, hehe
[17:32] MikeVanMan Dagger: right who cares about RL demographics unless you're using SL as a lead generation tool for your RL business
[17:32] Tequlia Tapioca: but with unique visits
[17:32] Lee Lindman: we can report on crashes no?
[17:32] Shanti Sands: ok SL demographics :D
[17:32] Tequlia Tapioca: still does not stop bots but better
[17:32] Velouria Infinity: Tim, we are not carpet-bombing you, I hope they won't carpet bomb me lol.... Jeska what is possible to do technically to reduce impact of bots and what is LL willing to do to restrict the influence of bots on any metric system that you are going to implement? I feel if we pin down the right position towards bots we speed up towards better ways to metric....
[17:32] sirhc DeSantis: can we?
[17:32] Lee Lindman: I'm pretty sure I've seen statistics from LL on crash rates
[17:32] Tim Gagliano: JESKA... ban bots... and put in a flag for camping.. that is what I want :)
[17:32] Musique Gable: I agree, Vel
[17:32] Tequlia Tapioca: they have them :)
[17:33] sirhc DeSantis: with tim
[17:33] Darien Caldwell: Bots can't be banned. but they can be made irrelevant.
[17:33] MikeVanMan Dagger: campers=red, bad, false traffic
[17:33] Jeska Linden: nods
[17:33] Tim Gagliano: leave traffic as it is...
[17:33] Martin Magpie: well said Vel
[17:33] Tim Gagliano: but ban the bots
[17:33] sirhc DeSantis: ok - tell me how many camper spots in a parcel
[17:33] Argos Hawks: If you only count traffic from PIOF accounts, and only one count one avatar per person, traffic bots go away immediately.
[17:33] Tequlia Tapioca: well i say levels of camps. 5 or less 10 or more sort if you do
[17:33] Tim Gagliano: make it a TOS infraction
[17:33] Jeska Linden: Darien is right, it is practically impossible to prevent bots, nor are all bots "evil" (some are kind of cool)
[17:33] Shanti Sands: bah LL just needs to publish a clear cut and definitive standard for the use of bots and differntiate them from legitamite accounts. They are different. Clear this subject and we can move on to better things.
[17:33] MikeVanMan Dagger: camper spots should be based on how much land you own in the sim
[17:33] Tequlia Tapioca: some of us do it for other then traffic reasons
[17:33] Tim Gagliano: ok
[17:33] Shanti Sands: * legit alt accounts i meant
[17:33] Velouria Infinity: have them pay for a dedicated bot account, heavy fees, while making traffic less permeable to them is a compromise I would accept
[17:33] Musique Gable: there is a difference between BOTS and ALTS
[17:33] MikeVanMan Dagger: but to a degree if you dont own 100% obviosly
[17:34] Argos Hawks: No it isn't. You can prevent traffic bots by only counting one avatar per verifed human
[17:34] Ann Otoole: then why not just log the data and let parcel owners query it. we can get everything we need. visitors by payment status, repeat visitors, duration per visit, total visit time and all by day, week, month, etc. raw data is more valuable than just some made up formula numbers. dump the visit data to a seperate data warehouse and allow parcel owners to queery it via the web.
[17:34] Shanti Sands agrees with Musique
[17:34] sirhc DeSantis: teq - thats fine. just tell me
[17:34] Tim Gagliano: when you have 90 above a club for 10 days.... and you club cannot hold more then 20 people.. that is a problem
[17:34] Velouria Infinity: thats something LL can also do, Ann
[17:34] Jeska Linden: But I agree with Shanti, I think it's clear that we're not keen on Bots and should work to either allow people to identify them within their metrics or make clearer guidelines on their usage. I'll take that back to the search team.
[17:34] Tequlia Tapioca smiles
[17:34] Velouria Infinity: dump traffic on known bot users
[17:34] Shanti Sands: Yes those are bots, not alts. Usage factors in to what is and isn't a bot.
[17:34] Ann Otoole: would be less of a load than making up more encoded formulas
[17:34] Martin Magpie: bots are kewl till they take down the grid. sorry but that is a reality.
[17:35] Original Prim: Bots could register themselves with the server and have "bot" branded on their profile and elsewhere
[17:35] Dirk Talamasca: Less Load = Good
[17:35] Argos Hawks: shanti, any usage that you believe indicates a person can be faked by a bot
[17:35] Tequlia Tapioca: i like to help new real players a bit. i have 3 camps but bots are horrid. used to be fun
[17:35] Velouria Infinity: what is the impact of bots on usage if that is available data?
[17:35] sirhc DeSantis: good question
[17:35] Shanti Sands: I have two alts that have their own businesses that just don't mesh with mine, plus help with land management functions. Blanketing alts as bots is not always accurate
[17:35] Jeska Linden: So I've got a slew of different metrics that you have all suggested would be helpful in determining how your parcel is doing
[17:35] Jeska Linden: (above and beyond today's "traffic")
[17:35] MikeVanMan Dagger: Bots are crap, if you run a sim of bots you have no honor and are not what newcomers in SL should be falsified in beleiving is what SL has to offer, it's cr*p!
[17:35] Ann Otoole: bots can look like anything and if the abuse situation is not solved you can expect the problem to increase at a log rate as everyone joins the bots-in-a-box arms race
[17:36] sirhc DeSantis: ann thats a bit strong
[17:36] Musique Gable: It's not traffic that is broken and/or the amount of popular places, its the amount of bots allowed in SL
[17:36] Melissa Venera accepted your inventory offer.
[17:36] Martin Magpie: I see her point.
[17:36] Beithe Mills: Agree with that one Ann.......we have 14 just to keep us afloat.....
[17:36] Velouria Infinity: there's also the fact that experinced users make up their opinon on parcels/islands using bots, that's valuable and we all can judge as we do everyday
[17:36] Tequlia Tapioca: yes
[17:36] Tequlia Tapioca: good idea
[17:36] Argos Hawks: Ann is right, but if you limit traffic to a single PIOF account per person, the problem is solved
[17:37] Jeska Linden: So stepping back into brainstorming land for a minute...
[17:37] MikeVanMan Dagger: if you (LL) were to say 10 days free trail accounts are on again and for any bots you want to keep to aditional members, pay $1.00 extra per month even, think of the possibilities on your end and the slews of dead accounts that would pop up....I say go with that
[17:37] Jeska Linden: We talked a bit about what types of metrics would help you understand more of what is happening on your individual parcels.
[17:37] Lee Lindman: Argos - I like your idea
[17:37] Aliester Enoch: Argos - how will you tell?
[17:37] Argos Hawks: you can't get a PIOF account without giving up your CC info. that includes a name and address
[17:38] Tequlia Tapioca: well is there metrics i can look at over the last 24 hours that shows my technical performance
[17:38] Martin Magpie: I could see how a bot could be useful to answer questions and such. But is that really in LL best interest for me to have a free account and use a bot to do business? I don't think that would do my business much good; no personal touch. As far as not good for LL " I walked around all day, shopping and looking at kewl places; unfortunatly I couldn't find one real person to talk to" Don't think it can't happen.
[17:38] Argos Hawks: you can't fake it without committing real life fraus
[17:38] sirhc DeSantis: Jeska - metrics generated by visitors
[17:38] Argos Hawks: fraud
[17:38] Jeska Linden: Which of those metrics, if any, would you want to view publically?
[17:38] Original Prim: Bots are very small programs which only utilize a small part of the protocol, they'd find it very difficult to respond to any verification of visual data because they typically disgard it all.
[17:38] Aliester Enoch: Argos - and people will
[17:38] Darien Caldwell: yes Martin. Bots aren't as desirable as real people :)
[17:38] sirhc DeSantis: all of them
[17:38] Tequlia Tapioca: spikes and highest usage scripts
[17:38] Jeska Linden: and/or be used to help with search relevance (as traffic does with the places tab currently)
[17:38] Tequlia Tapioca: at the time
[17:38] Musique Gable: I don't know if I would want any of them viewed publicly
[17:38] Argos Hawks: then those people can be reported to the RL authorities
[17:39] Tequlia Tapioca: who was wearing it
[17:39] Tim Gagliano: Jeska
[17:39] Tim Gagliano: How about TPs in?
[17:39] sirhc DeSantis: gather the data first then mine it to see what works
[17:39] Beithe Mills: i would not have a problem if all the metrics were public
[17:39] Musique Gable: for my own personal use...if they see the keyword PLANT works for SIM A.....and then they start using it
[17:39] Velouria Infinity: jeska, only traffic data that makes sense to business is PUBLIC data and resident's generated data is inevitably mangled or subjected to gaming
[17:39] Musique Gable: that opens a whole can of worms
[17:39] Shanti Sands: publically as in to the general public - or to the landholders
[17:39] Shanti Sands: ?
[17:39] Musique Gable: I'd want it for my personal use, not public consumption
[17:39] MikeVanMan Dagger: RL authorites? That's a bit extreme, and which county form of execution of the law should we use, USA? as is always the law over everyones SL experience?
[17:39] Jeska Linden: Currently traffic is a publically used metric to help determine relevance
[17:39] Darien Caldwell: as long as the metrics aren't associated with any individual Avatar, I see no problem with any of them being public.
[17:39] sirhc DeSantis: kk so - split between profit/np locations
[17:40] Velouria Infinity: we need sorta what we have, the whole economy is tied to clean (if gamed) public data
[17:40] Tim Gagliano: ok
[17:40] Jeska Linden: It's also the only number provided to you from Linden Lab about how your business is doing.
[17:40] Tequlia Tapioca: bad for relevence really here
[17:40] Ann Otoole: anyone makes a bot that randomly travels the grid buying stuff at random is a hero. otherwise bots add very little to SL until we can develop serious NPCs. and i'm hoping the future of scripting helps. so all bots are not evil. well unless programmed as an evil NPC anyway.
[17:40] Tim Gagliano: Yes.. but what if we added Teleports in to a parcel/sim?
[17:40] sirhc DeSantis: that b word again
[17:40] Velouria Infinity: thst is why I am not for suppression of traffic, that's a bad move if ever will be implemented
[17:40] Argos Hawks: the authorities that cover the place where the fraud was committed. credit card fraud is a serious RL crime. I doubt many will commit RL fraud to get a few extra traffic points.
[17:41] Martin Magpie: I don't want to see an end of traffic, I would however like to see it removed as a part of search.
[17:41] Jeska Linden: Velouria / Martin - can you both explain your views?
[17:41] Aliester Enoch: I think traffic should stay as it is and in search
[17:41] Velouria Infinity: most of our clients are in stand-by mode on this very topic
[17:41] Shanti Sands: that is a weak way to know how your business is doing , traffic alone - i would be interested in seeing traffic as a land management figure amongst other data such as keywords utilized, whether they got there from search or LM - whether it was a return visit etc.
[17:41] Jeska Linden: I'm curious to hear more about them, since they seem simiilar and yet very different.
[17:41] Musique Gable: I disagree with that...Martin sorry. Again, I use PLACES in search more than I do classifieds
[17:42] sirhc DeSantis: how about word of mouth?
[17:42] Musique Gable: The good places are going to get good traffic regardless of bots...and you can tell once you land on the sim
[17:42] Velouria Infinity: PLACES is the engine of this economy and a generator of transactions, i agree totally
[17:42] Dirk Talamasca: word of mouth is good if you happen to speak the same language but SL is a global community
[17:42] Orion Shamroy: If a number is needed for search ranking, why not two figures? A total number of _unique_ visits per month and an average of monthly totals?
[17:42] Darien Caldwell: only because Places is the only 'free' classified.
[17:42] sirhc DeSantis: mais oui
[17:43] Velouria Infinity: WOM does not work in a place this big Dirk, realize it please
[17:43] Velouria Infinity: that's a boutique economy
[17:43] Blue67 Fairlane: i agree with orion
[17:43] Martin Magpie: Traffic is gamed always has been, I don't think its in anyones best interest to see XXX on the top of the search pile even when looking for "a puppy". When you have traffic as part of search your search then becomes a fight to be #1. If it was removed then ppl would have the oppertunity to find what they are looking for. Instead of every store using key words to get traffic falsely.
[17:43] Argos Hawks: unique visits is easier to game than traffic and harder on the servers as people keep cycling their bots through the TPs
[17:43] Jeska Linden: Orion/ Blue - tell us more?
[17:43] Musique Gable: You have some sims who cater to a newbie...for example. I offer freebies to lure in new people and hopefully people who come back to visit
[17:43] Aliester Enoch: traffic isn't the problem its the keywords, anyone can put anything in, like Martin said
[17:44] Darien Caldwell: Orion, i don't see how that would be any different than what we have now.
[17:44] Velouria Infinity: in the group we proposed tag limitation
[17:44] Blue67 Fairlane: why use just one figure, use several and possibly average them?
[17:44] Aliester Enoch: search will never be relevant as long as anyone can just make up anything to show up for
[17:44] sirhc DeSantis: so categories - defined ones?
[17:44] Jeska Linden: Aliester - Agree, there should be less keywords to allow for better bidding
[17:44] Beithe Mills: There is a lot of false keywords in some areas, that is not as bad as the traffic issue for us.......the keywords tend to backfire, places that do that a lot get customers mad
[17:44] Velouria Infinity: Aliester SEACH is relevant
[17:44] Aliester Enoch: Yes!
[17:44] Martin Magpie: Also I am sure that X rated is not the very first thing you want the ppl to think SL is when they log in for the first time.
[17:44] Argos Hawks: any search where we are talking about keywords and tags is not the search we came here to talk about
[17:44] Musique Gable: I don't think there is enough keywords as it is...to desribe my sim
[17:44] Aliester Enoch: Velouria - which search are you using?
[17:44] Original Prim: I rely on traffic figures when searching. If I'm looking for a particular type of store, high traffic usually equates with better quality products. It's virtually unheard of for a store with quality products to have no traffic. This isn't always true for non-commercial locations, however.
[17:44] Orion Shamroy: Well, mainly model the whole thing after a web counter. Simple and easy. What we have now is some sort of jumbled magic number kind of system. There are just too many factors to even know whats being counted.
[17:45] Musique Gable: I agree Original
[17:45] MikeVanMan Dagger: Sadly too Jeska, with the announcement of daily traffic or popular places coming to an end, both will bring a major dive in mainland prices, which could and would be bad business for LL........we need to invent something other for people to do in sl other then camop, shop and have sex.....need more carnivals, more art shows, more ways of showing what SL really should be, heck even more palces for people to fire up their guns(yes orbit still exists you didnt break them all), and those places should be abuse report free, if you're there, fire at will, (getting off course there..sorry), but you really need to go back to some of the old ways of SL indeed
[17:45] Harvey Swenson: keywords is already limited by description and parcel size though jeska, it can only be gamed so far, including puppy as a box title and having 50k in traffic is what pushes it to the top
[17:45] Velouria Infinity: customers rely on PLACES, not ALL, to effectively shop and it is effective, want to put in on a POOL?
[17:45] Beithe Mills: Oh, and fix the dance/dancer/dancing problem....where each search list is totally different, hehehe
[17:45] Aliester Enoch: I agree with Original also
[17:45] Darien Caldwell: Thats kind of the original Intent, Orion, to make it so you don't know what's being counted, to keep from gaming it.
[17:45] Darien Caldwell: however it's failed now :)
[17:45] Musique Gable: I noticed the showcases only had clothes shopping, corporate sims. There is no category for my sim ...I sell furniture
[17:46] sirhc DeSantis: darien has a point
[17:46] Martin Magpie: I would suggest a search in alphabetical order it wouldn't have any relivence to name your store 111AAA mart.
[17:46] Velouria Infinity: we also proposed in the group to make Showcase more granular
[17:46] Musique Gable: I don't agree with alphabetical order
[17:46] Shanti Sands: different sorts of sims/businesses will have different factors that make it a sucess or not - a club or RP sim will matter more with traffic numbers - a small 512 selling assorting goods to get off the ground has no interest in numbers, they just want the opportunity to be found in search and not swallowed
[17:46] Beithe Mills: the older search was alphabetical.........ended up with everyone with all spaces as parcel name
[17:46] Martin Magpie: it was just a suggestion, I am sure there is a much better way to do it within the LL code.
[17:46] sirhc DeSantis: no we are trying to find a traffic replacement
[17:46] Velouria Infinity: I'm sorry, am I spamming? Sorry abou that but this is pretty wild I am afraid
[17:46] Argos Hawks: Alphabetical would be infinitely worse than what we've got already
[17:46] Musique Gable: I agree Argos
[17:47] sirhc DeSantis: with argos
[17:47] Martin Magpie: like i said it was a basic suggestion
[17:47] Jeska Linden: Musique - there are subcategories for the Showcase, including "Home Furnishings".. but I agree there could be more!
[17:47] sirhc DeSantis: erm - like what? yiffing encouraged?
[17:47] Velouria Infinity: fltering on the showacase was very appreciated thru the group
[17:47] Musique Gable: that would be nice, but I noticed right away in Showcases, I'm shut out, UNLESS I get in a HOT SPOT
[17:47] Tequlia Tapioca: home furnishings or clothing is too generic possibly
[17:47] Jeska Linden: Sorry, trying to keep up :)
[17:48] Tim Gagliano: Showcase is good for CSI, Tmobile and CNN... but what about the little guy/girl? is this a money driven venture?
[17:48] Katt Linden: probably not that one sirhc
[17:48] Tequlia Tapioca: or high level i mean
[17:48] Jeska Linden: I'd like for the Showcase to continue to grow over time, if it's proven to be helpful
[17:48] Musique Gable: I agree Tim
[17:48] Musique Gable: Again, I'm weary of showcasing, especially if its left up to the Lindens to decide. No offense
[17:48] Martin Magpie: right if we have more detailed drop downs that would certainly help; Clothes > shirts, pant, shoes... Shoes> mens, womens... Color> black, blue, pink polka dot (you get the idea
[17:48] Tequlia Tapioca: its not available for most of us today at all
[17:48] Ann Otoole: jeska, i asked a pre question in my rsvp. whay are the categories on classifieds we pay for not present on the new all search. specifically why isnt shopping category an option in the new search?
[17:48] Jeska Linden: If not, back to the drawing board. I believe it's better than the POpular Places metaphor
[17:48] Beithe Mills: I just worry that it will end up with an underground of places that will never get into showcase
[17:48] Velouria Infinity: sex, BDSM and such will never have a place in the Showacase... while I love this I wonder... how much of the economy is just that?
[17:48] Tim Gagliano: that is why i want to see traffic stay, bots be banned and have camping as a flag...
[17:49] Musique Gable: Get rid of the bots and Popular Places and traffic wouldn't be a problem
[17:49] Darien Caldwell: I think traffic should be eliminated as a factor in search, then bots no longer matter. Businesses will have to invest in marketing and classifieds, just as in Real LIfe. It's the only reasonable way that I can see.
[17:49] Tequlia Tapioca: well not in pg like classifieds at least
[17:49] Original Prim: The showcase would be beneficial to some, but with many thousands of deserving locations out there it could become as cluttered as Search is.
[17:49] Velouria Infinity: darien you are shooting for economic suicide
[17:49] Jeska Linden: Ann - the basic answer is that google doesn't do categories well. At some point in the future, after search flagging and the traffic reworking, I'd like to see an improved classifieds system built as well. But that's further out (maybe by the end of the year?)
[17:49] Ann Otoole: nothing stopping anyone from opening a non LL showcase on the web to cover stuff LL could not possibly cover.
[17:49] Martin Magpie: and please give XXX and Camps their own tabs
[17:49] Musique Gable: I disagree, i work hard to get traffic, throw events, put things on my island for peolple to enjoy, so they stay a while
[17:49] Argos Hawks: But traffic based searching is what works best for hangout type places where you are trying to find people
[17:49] MikeVanMan Dagger: I'm sure Neva Naughty, Black Ops and Panda will be featured heavily, sad but true, many of the main creators have alot of sway on mid and a major effect on any new coming up stores
[17:49] Lee Lindman: If showcases eventually allows user submission with digg-esque voting like you mentioned earlier Jeska I think that would be a good non-traffic metric based way to show some of the cooler places in SL
[17:49] Ann Otoole: thanks Jeska. been real curious on that category thing
[17:50] Tim Gagliano: cause doing away with traffic is gonna generate alot of ghost towns.. you can kiss the nightclubs good bye who rely on the traffic rankings
[17:50] Darien Caldwell: No, it works in Real life, why wouldn't it work here?
[17:50] sirhc DeSantis: well - with lee on that
[17:50] Musique Gable: Right....events in general will drop
[17:50] MikeVanMan Dagger: so give XXX its own tab, should we give conservative christian s their own too?, genres are good
[17:50] Jeska Linden: Then we can have another set of ocnversations around how to improve classifieds ;)
[17:50] Lee Lindman: but I still think traffic metrics themselves are critical for parcel owners
[17:50] Shanti Sands: a random feature would be cool - not as a replacement but as a random per category perhaps
[17:50] Tequlia Tapioca: oh yes it does. its the use of the engines tools. its a big job mind. and i wouldnt expect Linden to be web google
[17:50] Argos Hawks: Lee, that would just be the same voting system that has failed before.
[17:51] Jeska Linden: Lee - I agree, metrics help you determine if what you're doing is successful :)
[17:51] Tequlia Tapioca: yes
[17:51] Jeska Linden: Telling parcel / estate owners what is happening on their land is key.
[17:51] Darien Caldwell: of course, metrics are key
[17:51] Musique Gable: Again, the common factor here is BOTS are gaming the system and will continue to unless you put a stop to them. It's killing the grid not just in resources but all over
[17:51] Jeska Linden: Better metrics is something we've wanted for a long time.
[17:51] Darien Caldwell: they give you direction on how to market :)
[17:52] Tequlia Tapioca: but how to stop the cheats is the bigger question.
[17:52] Tequlia Tapioca: manythings that would please us
[17:52] Tequlia Tapioca: will be cheated
[17:52] Shanti Sands: My education is in marketing/advertising so i really DO want to know the numbers to see what is working i just think that for many businesses, traffic rank should not influence exposure solely ( not including perhaps clubs and the like)
[17:52] MikeVanMan Dagger: we've tossed enuff ideas on how to fix or end bots
[17:52] Aliester Enoch: Musique, do you have proof that bots take up a lot of resources even? or are you just assuming that?
[17:52] Martin Magpie: I own both a mainland sim and an estate and I can tell you traffic doesn't help or hurt. It's nothing more than a web counter. "Refresh" anyone.
[17:52] Velouria Infinity: darien, this economy is closed, sprawled, you just need a metric for relevance, taken out the gamed spot, lool, I have my problems agreeing with people like Prokofy on this matter but it's true... not only that but all economic traffic is interwined, you won't keep having a business if the big guys fall and disappear. I urge all to be cautious on engaging on the no-traffic option because that is precisely what we DO NOT NEED
[17:52] MikeVanMan Dagger kics can around room
[17:52] Musique Gable: I'm all for that Shanti. I love the marketing part of SL myself
[17:52] Darien Caldwell: i agree martin
[17:52] Martin Magpie: sorry my alt does
[17:52] Original Prim: Do people ever find traffic difficult to read? The figure isn't representative of actual foot traffic, it's merely the total figure that's calculated at the end of the day and could be the same for two very different traffic patterns.
[17:52] Harvey Swenson: there is proof aliester
[17:52] Beithe Mills: i know it true on our isle, it is noticable with just 14
[17:53] Tequlia Tapioca: well yes Orignal
[17:53] Tequlia Tapioca: almost 4 years and yes
[17:53] Jeska Linden: nods
[17:53] Ann Otoole: stick an account on a parcfel for 24 hours and the traffic is 1440. the number of minutes in a day. me thinks the "complex formula" got replaced by a simple counter somewhere along the way.
[17:53] Shanti Sands: Its valuable, but as a feature to be utilized for analysis not to exclude the little people - upand coming businesses getting exposure also forces the big names to remain fresh, which can revitalize the community as well
[17:53] Tequlia Tapioca: and i am smart k
[17:53] Jeska Linden: So having better numbers to look at would definitely help to determine things like what time of day your store is busiest, how many avatars visit for the first time vs. repeat, etc
[17:54] Jeska Linden: (note still brainstorming here, not sure which of these numbers are possible yet!)
[17:54] Aliester Enoch: Right on Ann, the complex formula is a joke
[17:54] Tequlia Tapioca: what we did to accomplish.
[17:54] Harvey Swenson: and what they do when they get there Jeska would be good if possible
[17:54] Darien Caldwell: yes Jeska
[17:54] Velouria Infinity: it would Jeska, as it does presently I believe
[17:54] Tim Gagliano: Jeska.. Add TPs in ... to that equasion... that should help
[17:54] Argos Hawks: Jeska, those would be great, but that sounds like a nightmare for an already overtaxed system to track.
[17:54] Shanti Sands: Yes Jeska, for sure.
[17:54] Tequlia Tapioca: my traffic is 8k to 10k and some days i have my 3 campers and some not
[17:54] Jeska Linden: It would have to be on another db that's for sure :)
[17:54] Ann Otoole: sure jeska but what would help more is an end to traffic falsification unless it is decoupled from search and traffic bots become irrelevant
[17:54] Shanti Sands: lol i would hope :)
[17:54] Jeska Linden: And could probably be something you could 'save out'
[17:54] Jeska Linden: Maybe export to various formats.
[17:54] Tequlia Tapioca: but my campers do not make it higher normally
[17:55] Shanti Sands: oh that would be great!
[17:55] Velouria Infinity: absolutely jeska
[17:55] Darien Caldwell: like transactions
[17:55] Lee Lindman: Jeska - it would be nice if traffic was gathered by the viewer and sent to a external db
[17:55] Tim Gagliano: because you cannot tp in a bot (dont think you can...)
[17:55] Martin Magpie: so 1440 x5 alts kewl guess my traffic will be 7200 in the morning. Gaming the system.
[17:55] Jeska Linden: Ann - I think the first step is finding better metrics for parcel owners then figure out which metrics provides additional relevance for search
[17:55] Tequlia Tapioca: :)
[17:55] Lee Lindman: then other worlds like opensim could also be part of the traffic data collection
[17:55] Shanti Sands: yes like transactions that would be fantastic!
[17:55] MikeVanMan Dagger: what they do, everything from light a nuke in your shop, you view a vendor, talk smack, advertise or their own store with a similar product, how does this help? Why be the big brother of SL, heck, why buy in world with that look over the sholder nonsense, buy off slx
[17:56] Velouria Infinity: aha. Lee, you go SOOOO far :))
[17:56] Original Prim: More choice rather than less is ideal. Traffic could be retained, but available as an sorting option, depending on personal preference.
[17:56] Lee Lindman: always thinking ahead :)
[17:56] Jeska Linden: Lee with the 50,000 foot vision ;)
[17:56] Velouria Infinity: :))
[17:56] Argos Hawks: Transactions could be a great bit of info for the landowner, but another terrible idea to put into the search algorithm. Again, too easy to fake.
[17:56] Tequlia Tapioca: yes
[17:56] MikeVanMan Dagger forms I love Lee group, charges 500L join fee and pays for campers for next 3 weeeks
[17:56] Jeska Linden: Oh! While we're talking about metrics - what other kinds of metrics would you like about classifieds?
[17:56] Shanti Sands: agreed
[17:57] Jeska Linden: Right now I think we give number of teleports, number of profile opened and number of views
[17:57] Jeska Linden: ?
[17:57] Tim Gagliano shouts: take out the pay per rank!
[17:57] Tim Gagliano: oops
[17:57] Tim Gagliano: sorry for the shout
[17:57] Tequlia Tapioca: well ones that are consistant
[17:57] Tim Gagliano: Hahahahahahahaha
[17:57] Jeska Linden: hehe
[17:57] Tequlia Tapioca: i have repeating ads and weekly
[17:57] Darien Caldwell: i'd like to know how many views that *didn't* TP
[17:57] Velouria Infinity: roads, finishe them and place the proper ads on them
[17:57] Martin Magpie: I honestly wonder what the advantage of reworking a broken system is.
[17:57] Tequlia Tapioca: and man thats hard to follow
[17:57] Harvey Swenson: being able to change the price on classifieds would be good
[17:57] Tequlia Tapioca: when you take my money a flash to the next traffic
[17:57] Shanti Sands: what about a *hot* area - for instance that weeks classifieds that drew TPs and not just big buck spenders - may be different
[17:58] Jeska Linden: Tequlia - so a system to track campaigns?
[17:58] Tequlia Tapioca: does not do it
[17:58] Original Prim: Possibly to track how long the classified was on screen for, to see if it was actually read?
[17:58] Tequlia Tapioca: yes
[17:58] Jeska Linden: ie: I ran ads a/b/c for 2/4/6 weeks etc
[17:58] Musique Gable: YOu can still game that Shanti...with bots
[17:58] Tequlia Tapioca: you do sort of i think
[17:58] Velouria Infinity: make classified accessible on the territory, just as in RL
[17:58] Shanti Sands: True
[17:58] Tequlia Tapioca: but it flashes so fast
[17:58] Tequlia Tapioca: i am not always so alert
[17:58] Shanti Sands: Darn you Musique lol :D but you are right.
[17:58] Tequlia Tapioca: and i am quick
[17:58] Musique Gable: hehe
[17:58] Jeska Linden: :)
[17:59] Original Prim: the keyword(s) which lead to it being discovered
[18:00] Jeska Linden: Thanks everyone again for the conversation


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